The Worst Arguments We’ve Ever Made (And What We Learned) - Part 1

Episode 8: The Worst Arguments We’ve Ever Made (And What We Learned) - Part 1

In this episode of The Velvet Hammer™ Podcast, Karen Koehler & Mo Hamoudi dive into some of the worst courtroom arguments they've ever made and the tough lessons that came with them. 

From being thrown to the wolves in court as a young attorney to completely missing a hearing due to a calendar mishap, they break down the moments that shaped them as trial lawyers. Along the way, they explore how legal practice has changed with technology, the evolving mindset of juries post-pandemic, and why critical thinking is more important than ever in law. 

The conversation takes a few detours, but that’s just how they roll—so buckle up for a mix of humor, honesty, and hard-earned wisdom.

🎧 Timestamps:
0:00 - The Struggle of Cold Weather & Commuting
3:45 - Our Most Embarrassing Courtroom Moments
12:30 - The Case of Garlic as a “Drug”
20:15 - Missing a Court Hearing & Learning the Hard Way
25:00 - How Technology Has Changed Legal Practice
30:00 - Wrapping Up (And Planning Part 2!)

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Transcript

0:07

Okay, so first of all, it is cold, and I don't understand... It snowed. I know it snowed, but I'm just not a big fan of this weather. Okay, put that down. I'll put this down. I'm not a big fan of this weather, and the reason why I'm not a big fan of this weather, it takes twice as long to get to the office, and I can't work out of my house right now because I'm squatting in my own house. And so there's no way I can work from home. So I had to, like, come from Edmonds, and it was snow everywhere, and it just took a long time. So I don't like the cold. All right. And I'm still cold. Well, the first episode I'd like to do today... Yes....was a special request by one of our many avid listeners. And the question was, what are some of the really good arguments you've done and some of the really bad arguments you've done? And I'm going to start first. I'm going to go with the bad. I can remember my first terrible argument. Can you remember your first terrible? I'm going to go first. So my first regular job after graduating was working for a firm called Diamond and Sylvester. They're a firm. They've been around 50 years. This firm is going on 80. That firm was at 50 years, and then it broke up. But I was there right before it broke up, and there was, like, a power tussle between the associates and the partners. Yeah. Anyway, I was assigned to these partners, and I didn't want to do any litigation initially, but that didn't last long. I wanted to just be, like, an appellate brief writer. Really? Oh, it's a long story. You wanted to be an appellate lawyer? I didn't want to have anything to do with working for my mom, who got into trouble with the bar and who was chaotic and had all these. You know, she did a lot of domestic law, criminal law. And so she'd have, you know, the clients were just all entangled, and, you know, it was not good. So I wanted to, like, be the opposite of my mom. So I worked for this firm. Well, I needed to go and argue some motion. And the history of the motion is, like, one of the first arguments I did in superior court working for the firm, probably the first. And I was handed a paper file. You know, they had these big paper files. It wasn't even that thick, maybe this thick, and said, this is a really easy motion. Everything's pretty much already been decided. You just have to go down to court and present this order. I didn't even have to really argue. So this is when we worked in the Columbia Center. So it was literally across the street. Walk across the street, get up to the floor of the courthouse, go in there. The other attorney's there. I'm standing there, you know, in my cute little suit and looking all professional. I got the file. I got the order. And the judge started yelling at me. Why? Apparently, it was not a simple matter. Apparently, he had already gone off on this other lawyer that gave me the task the time before. And that lawyer knew it and just didn't want to see him, which is why I got the job of going down there to deal with this order. Well, what was the nature of the order? I don't remember. All I remember is I went there. I really could say nothing. I was so proud. Like, my name is Karen Kohler. I'm from Diamond and Sylvester Law Firm, and we represent the defendants. And that was about all I got to say. He was so rude. He didn't care who I was. And I just sat there and I took it, and the other guy put up the order. I can remember walking out of there. And I just—the other lawyer said—he was walking next to me. He was about a foot taller than me. He was a plaintiff lawyer, and he knew I was upset, although I never acted like I was upset. I didn't think. As soon as I walked out of that courtroom with that guy, we started walking down the hall out, and I just started crying uncontrollably. I could not stop crying. And he had his arm around my shoulder, and he said, you know, it's okay, it's okay. He was very, very kind. And I learned that day never to trust anyone in terms of if I'm going to go to court— No, this is—it's self-preservation. If you're going to give me—as an employee, you're going to give me an assignment, and you're going to say, no problem, it's already been handled. All you have to do is go present it. I will never believe them, and I never did. I always would look in the file. I'd see what had happened. Now, I may not have—that may not have helped here, because it was totally a setup. But I never go into court unprepared. That's a good lesson. The first part bothered me a little bit, when you say, like, never to trust anyone ever again. I mean, that's a little— But that's how I felt at the time. Okay, but now— Obviously, you know. I mean, I trust you until I don't trust you. I mean, that, again, that's like—that's—what's the word? Like, when you, like—you let somebody down once, and it's over, and the line is drawn. Well, not— Like, you let a colleague down. But, you know, that's not—I mean—or the other side. If you say something to me, and it turns out not to be true— Yes. I will never—it's true. I will never—that former relationship is gone. There's a chink in it. Now, it may not be completely severed. No. I would never do that. But there is a level of, I can't get burned again. I got to take an extra step, which didn't exist before. That I get. That makes sense. But, like, sometimes, I mean, there's context. I mean, there's, you know, there's not just, like, somebody misrepresenting something to you. Maybe they screwed up. Maybe they made a mistake. It's an honest mistake. No. For me, for me, I remember that so vividly, being just shamed in open court. And, you know, when you would go down to these— Interesting. When you would go down to these things, you weren't the only people. There were—courtrooms were always filled because everything got argued. There was no rulings without an argument. Yeah. Every single thing got argued. Even stipulations had to be presented. So, there was a room full of people. I just got castigated. I didn't even know why. Other than I pieced together that something bad already happened. Very mad at that attorney. And then by association, me. And we were in the wrong. We go out there. Start crying. Trauma. Like, I mean, it's a little trauma, but it's still a trauma. Trauma does impact you, especially when you are a young, impressionable person who just blindly trusted them. Yeah. But it's a good lesson. That's a good lesson. The only difference I have is that, I don't know, people lie to me. I get over it. Because you were a public defender. Oh, like I'm used to. Your whole job is based on— But my son Jude lies to me a couple of times. And then I was like, well, why did you lie to me? He was like, it was a white lie. I was trying to protect you. An 11-year-old says that. Yeah, it's true. And sometimes people keep things from you because they want to protect you. But I understand about, like, if a colleague or somebody who you report to sends you to do a task and sets you up to fail— And you're just this little, sweet newbie. Yeah. I think I just did that to Farhad. You did! I just did that to Farhad. Oh, my God. You have traumatized him. So you know what I did, Mike? I basically—the judge ordered that we couldn't discuss a topic. No, I know. I saw you guys literally right after you did it down in the Columbia. That's right. You were on jury duty. Yeah. And we ran into you. And Farhad goes up and says— It was an inquest. They were not allowed—the inquest judge would not allow them to use the word pretextual when talking about a race-based stop. Yeah. A dumb decision. However, the decision. And Farhad went up there, and he was like— On the first witness, the first question— And he's like, I'm going to say pretext. And then I was like, OK. And then he went up there and said pretext, and the whole room erupted as if he—and they yelled at him. You intentionally did that. You knew there was an order. And Farhad is sitting up there. Mistrial. It's not even a trial. Your Honor, this is insane. And then I'm just sitting there kind of looking away. And Farhad is up there, and he gracefully dealt with it. Yeah. So maybe sometimes doing stuff like that is a growing moment. Oh, OK. Well, it was a growing moment for me. But for me, the argument that I made that was, I think, the best— No, we're supposed to do the worst. OK, this is—I think it's the best and the worst. OK. It's like both. It's a twofer. In the middle of the pandemic, like right after the pandemic started, there was a great deal of hysteria about COVID. People were concerned about what it could do to people and vaccinating and stuff. And I ended up representing a person who was charged for committing some odd FDA crime for trying to sell garlic to treat COVID. Oh, of course. We all remember those. OK. OK. And so—and then they charged him with like a felony. And I was like, where— He's just a shyster. No, no, no. Wait, wait. He's a faux doctor. No, no, no. First of all, I was like, I thought maybe this was like a— He was RFK. No, he was not RFK. But no. So I go and look, and nobody had been harmed. It was just a—it's a dietary supplement, garlic supplement. By the way, garlic is— How much did he want for that garlic? Like $100. Oh, my God. That's how much they're worth. They're like $100. Selling it on Facebook, like to a small group of followers. And then I'm like, what kind of a case is this? This is crazy. And then I look at the document, the charging document. They said he was selling a drug. And I was like, this is not a drug. It's garlic. This is insane. So the whole case was about whether garlic is a drug. And I'm in front of this jury, and I'm looking at them, and I'm saying to them— Wait. Can I just pause? Yeah. His face is very appropriate right now, may I just say. He's like looking at me with— He's so perfect. With a great deal of suspicion and skepticism. But I argued—I went up there, and I was like, garlic is not a drug. I was like, if garlic's a drug, I was like, pizza's a drug, birthday cake's a drug. And I went through all of that. But it was the most ridiculous argument and good argument I thought I made. I hung the first jury because they were like, no way, garlic's a drug. But the second jury convicted. So. But don't you think that that was just part of the hysteria at that time? Oh, absolutely it was part of the hysteria. There was a great deal of hysteria. I don't know. I mean, it was—people were upset. I'd never seen—I saw juries change after the pandemic. They were just a little bit more, urgh, you know. That's my experience. Juries after the pandemic—and I don't know if they—we just had a jury. I thought they were much better. They were a nice jury. But jurors are just very angry and upset and very distrustful of people. Yeah. Yeah. All right. My second worst argument. What's your second worst argument? All right. So I was, again, a defense lawyer, but farther along in my career. And I was working on a contract basis for my friend Shelley because my firm, which was still part of Diamond Sylvester, which became—which broke up, and then I worked for the Diamond and Foreman, which became Foreman Craft and Prints, which became Craft Prints and Gans and—no, Craft Kimbrough and—it broke up like nine times over seven years. And the last time that it broke up, we were having Christmas party at that horrible Rainier Club. No offense, but I hate old clubs that excluded— The one on Fourth Avenue? Yeah. The Rainier Club? The old snobby club that excluded women and everything. Oh, yeah. Well, we were in there and I was like, where's Craft and Kimbrough and Gans? And the receptionist said, oh, didn't you know the firm has broken up again? What? Yeah. Again? Yes. So at that point, I said, this is it. And my friend Shelley lived—her office was right across the street. So I left my office and I went to go practice at her office across the street. I kept my plaintiff cases, which were like four of them, and then I did contract defense work because she was on maternity leave until she came back from maternity leave. And she worked on one side of her desk and I worked on the other side of her desk for a year until an office came available. Well, I was working for one of her defense clients' contract, right? Yeah. I was a defense lawyer anyway. And I was going to go argue a summary judge motion. And I really prided myself in my technological advances. I always—I had a laptop really early. Okay, okay. I embraced all that. I had a computer on my laptop. I kept my calendar electronically. And I got to the courthouse at 1. And I went and I grabbed the door and it didn't open. And I pulled the other—it didn't open. Yeah. And I was like, what the heck? And then I went and looked at my calendar. It said 1. And then I went and looked—made one more look at a paper thing. And it was at 11. Oh, no. So you missed it? So the courthouse hallway has—you know, it's all marble and black and white marble. And then it has these long, you know, church pews, I call them. But, you know, those wooden pews. I physically laid down in the church pew like this. I could just remember. And then I kind of curled up and I thought, oh, my God, I got to tell Shelley. And so first thing I did after I picked myself up was to call the defense lawyer. Now, I had been horrible to the defense lawyer. Oh, no. She was a mediocre defense lawyer. And I had just been, you know, kind of—no, wait. She was a plaintiff lawyer. Plaintiff lawyer. Because you were a defense lawyer. Yeah, I was. That's right. So I just thumped on her the whole time. She wasn't—yeah, she wasn't mediocre. Anyway, thumping on her. Yeah. So I called her and I just said, what happened? And she told me. I said, I completely had it down at the wrong time. And I just went and faced it. You know, I never—I always believe, like, you face it immediately. So, I mean, as soon as I could. She was the first person I called. Sorry I wasn't there. Of course, I lost the motion. She won the motion because I wasn't there. Then I had to go tell Shelley. So I don't want to do that in person. She was back from maternity leave by then. Drove back to the office and said, Shelley—and I told her. And she went like this. Because she's my best friend. Okay. Okay. That's nice. I've got to meet Shelley, by the way. So then I appealed it and it was reversed. Which took a little bit more time, but still, right? All ended up well to end well. But that was my worst argument that never occurred because I missed it. Well, okay, that's your worst argument that never occurred because you missed it. And then they reversed and then you went back and did a good job. Yes, but look at how long that took. I mean— Yeah. And so what did I learn from that? I learned to type in my calendar correctly and or, more importantly, to let someone else do it. Yeah. I am not good at keeping my calendar. I can't keep my calendar. Everybody—I just make everyone else do it because for the past two Fridays, in the past month on two different Fridays, we have—I have—Loris, my significant other, have gone to—first we went to watch The Brutalist at Cinerama. And then the little code thing wouldn't work when they were letting us in. And I went, wow, something's wrong. I go around to the office and they're like, yeah, that's not until next week. And then did the same thing. We went to Northwest Film Center up on Capitol Hill last Friday. We got there. They're like, you're not on the list, but go ahead and go in. And then I'm sitting there thinking, like, what is this? And I said, is this, you know, Judy Sean's documentary movie on single motherhood? And they said no. And it was the DisableList comedy show, annual—third annual comedy show. So we go to the front and we go, is there another theater in here? Let me see your ticket. And he goes, yeah, it's February. This isn't until—I mean, this is—it's January. This isn't until February. This is next week. We're going tomorrow. So— You like book stuff and then, like, you miscalculate. Well, because I calendared. So then Loris goes, well, let's stay. And we did. We stayed for three hours. It was probably the best—one of the best things I've ever gone to. It was—I mean, people with severe—from severe, severe disabilities to ones that you couldn't see, like MS. Yeah. But, like, there was one gentleman that was so severely disabled, he had to have another person read his comedy. And he acted it out, but in a—you know, he had a lot of spasticity. But it was so brilliant. I mean, it was, like, so—it was inspirational and funny all at the same time. So the lesson to my failure is it's not whether you're going to fail. It's what you do with it. Now, my calendaring, I've learned to have someone else do it. But missing it like that, confront it, deal with it, and just keep on going because that's all you can do. Yeah. That's good advice. I just, you know, I— Have you ever missed an argument? Have I missed an argument? I've never missed one ever since. No, I get very nervous about missing stuff. I try to be very punctual. But I have ripped my pants in the courtroom, and so I had to keep sitting. I couldn't stand because you could see, like, my butt. And so I've had that happen, and that was very awkward. So, I mean, that's happened to me. The judge said, Mr. Hammoudi, why are you not raising your hands? Yeah, that's what the judge said. It was in some county superior court. Yeah, they'd like you to stand up. It was in California. You're supposed to stand up when you address the court unless you get permission. And I was like, I can't stand up. I'm not going to stand up. And she was getting very upset. And I was like, I can't stand up. She's like, why can't you stand up? And I was like, because I ripped my pants. Oh, my gosh. But, yeah, you know, I don't know. That stuff kind of makes work fun, don't you think? Don't you think that stuff kind of makes what we do fun? I mean, it's life. Yeah, it's fun stuff. Do you think that these experiences impact how you treat other lawyers now as a managing partner? Like being let down, you know, or not making something on time, miscalendering things. Do you think it impacts you? You know, I would say no. But in reality, I think life impacts you. Yes. And it's a matter of if you're self-reflective enough to realize it. I think that I'm viewed as a person that has very high standards. But our whole firm has very high standards. Yes. And those are aspirational. However, I also believe that what you do is who you are professionally. Like just because I think I'm on time doesn't mean that I'm on time. Yes. It's am I on time or not? All the other excuses don't matter or what happened. I mean, the judge, you know, I can remember one time there was a huge earthquake, whatever that 1990 earthquake was, a huge one. Here in Seattle? Oh, yeah. And I lived on the Sammamish Plateau, so we had problems for like weeks after that. Versus if you're in Seattle, you know, you probably had problems for a day or two. And it was very difficult to get to court. Yeah. Lights were out or there was traffic. And sometimes I'd have to get there like two hours in advance just in case the traffic was worse than I thought it would be. And you would do that. You know, you'd go through all those extra steps. So with respect to like lawyers in the office, we have to remember, I would say this, there is no generation of lawyer that doesn't deal with older lawyers who say, well, back in my day. When I was a lawyer, I remember when. We used to have horse-drawn carriages. I used to take dictation. That's not even that long ago. I mean, every generation, all of us have those. I know. And now it's even worse because technology has been so fast. Yes. I think that's a bad thing, by the way. The technology is a good thing, but it's a bad thing too. But I have thoughts on both. Yeah. Well, so I never really minded if people said that to me because my mom was a lawyer. And it seemed like the divide wasn't quite as great as it is now because when I became a lawyer, we were using yellow pads. They used yellow pads. People still are using yellow pads. I'm not. I haven't for like at least a decade. No, you're super technology-driven. But I used to see what happened to other people that had experienced that, which was it didn't sound good for you to continually say, in my day we didn't do this. You're not relating to that younger generation. So I'm pretty sensitive to that. Even so, I still believe that the physical toil of the rigor we had to do, like to go to the library to research a subject, you had to go to the library because your library office didn't have the other states or the different reporters. You only had certain things in your own library. Even though I worked for a big firm, which we had a lot of stuff, you have to go to the law school library typically because King County Library is not so good. Or we could go to King County Library or Federal Library. I went to all of them. And we'd sit there, and then you'd have to have those carts, and you have to go pull the books off, like a cart of books. And then you'd go sit down, and then you'd have to take the books back. And you'd have to photocopy them if you wanted a particular page. And there was none of this cross-referencing and hyperlinking. Literally the physical toil of it did create a certain mental understanding, which you don't get by just doing it on the Internet. So my thoughts on that are that technology is great, but what is being lost is critical thinking. So my experience is when I teach at the law school, I can tell that attention spans are shorter, and people are consuming information in bits, and they think they understand what they have read, but they haven't. And they think they're writing down what they think they're writing down, but they're not. And it's a trap of technology. And so I do agree with you. When I went to law school, I got a job at the law library. It was the best thing I ever did for myself. The librarian taught you everything. Now they're all half-empty. They're all half-empty. Well, Mo, you got us completely off-topic. I did get us totally off-topic. We were supposed to be talking about arguments. All right, I'm sorry. This happens. You know I have ADHD, so I get... Okay, there's going to have to be a part two. All right. Okay, we'll go to part two, and we'll finish the arguments. Okay. All right.