The Unlikeable Client

Episode 11: The Unlikeable Client

Trigger Warning: This episode contains discussion of domestic violence, including descriptions of abuse. Please listen with care.

What happens when your client isn’t someone a jury might naturally root for? In this episode, Karen and Mo dive into one of the hardest parts of plaintiff law: working with clients who the public might not find sympathetic. From pulling a client out of a drug house before a deposition to representing someone with a complicated criminal past, they get real about the emotional, ethical, and strategic decisions behind client management.

Karen shares the story of her very first employment case against Boeing in the ‘90s, her trial against the City of Redmond involving a riotous plaintiff and a cow named Molly, and how her upbringing shaped her no-nonsense boundaries. Mo opens up about how his own history led him to seek understanding and redemption, even for clients whose stories mirror deeply personal pain.

Together, they unpack the moral calculus behind representing difficult people and what it means to believe that justice belongs to everyone, not just the likable.

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Transcript

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Okay, yeah, okay What one of the hardest parts of doing this job is client management like we're supposed to Piece of cake. We're supposed to take care of the client and listen to their direction and do what they want and I Don't know. I just feel like It's a job in itself. Like you're asked to be a shrink Well, so there's some people that say many people that You should never take a client that a jury won't love What does like you have to have it your clients have to be likable. Otherwise, you can't win and I've always said Don't hard personality people also deserve justice Isn't it? I mean it's justice only for the nice people that people like is that how it goes? You aren't likable. You're a problem. Therefore you do not get The right to go to court I agree with that and because I don't think that that's a good rule to follow that people don't like I Think the story will tell you who that person is I've heard this many times like in trial lawyer conferences, you know You got it. You got to get the likable client in it Your client is everything got it turned down the other ones and I have never felt that way Well, what does that even mean when they're saying that what does that mean? Unlikable like likable how the jury's gonna like them, but how do you know if some people like somebody? I mean a good example of it is is that half the country loves Donald Trump and half the country doesn't How do you tell what people are gonna like what people let's go through some examples. Okay, give me some examples All right, so Perkins Cooey has been in the news lately. Yeah, but my first experience with Perkins Cooey was in the 90s When I was becoming a plaintiff lawyer and I decided to go into employment litigation which was really the stupidest thing I could have thought of and I Thought this is very interesting The problem was that the law changed literally weekly because there was no big body of employment discrimination law It was just constantly changing so you had to keep up with it and then everything else So my very first client that I took on was a woman who We needed to sue Boeing again, like When you think about it, it's like Karen This is your first employment case and you're gonna sue Boeing and their attorneys are Perkins Cooey. This was in the 90s Yes, okay Kevin Hamilton was the defense lawyer who I have nothing but respect for him even then and now but he kicked my butt Constantly and I realized that's when I first realized that you can be an attorney working for this huge defense firm and You know representing Boeing But he invited me over to his house with a bunch of other Perkins Cooey people for Democratic fundraiser. Yeah, and currently He's probably one of the reasons why Perkins Cooey is getting sued Because his he is he is he his causes are all Democratic and he goes around the country He's fight fights red zoning laws all constitutional issues. I mean, it's all voter You know discrimination he is that's his job So I didn't know that anyway the client so here was her disability She had narcolepsy wait what It was narcolepsy, it's when you fall asleep without control wait, okay Okay, so it's an actual like condition. Yes, so she was like she was she was not a high-level person. She was like you know a production line person and she'd be like sleeping But they had a duty to accommodate her because I was a disability. Yeah, that was my claim Well, then the question was is it really narcolepsy because she was doing sleep studies is it really narcolepsy or sleep apnea Or is it narcolepsy? And then the question became is it narcolepsy or is it drugs? So this was the question in the litigation that there was not an accommodation because this was not narcolepsy Yes, okay. What did you get a narcolepologist? Well, is that here here's here's how bad it was yeah, my job was to prevent them from knowing that there was a drug issue I only knew that and There's two things that stand out in my mind One is I had to go pick her up for her deposition. First of all, I had to find her Yeah, I had no idea where she was. I had to go track her down. I'm in my car. She's in Everett I basically pulled her out of a drug house. Yeah, that's number one number two and and she she made it through a deposition although I had all these Accommodations where she could go and sleep and then come back and do her deposition The other thing I remember is we were at I think it was whams, you know, Washington mediation for the mediation, I think so and And Again I knew she basically Anyway, my recollection of the mediation was her sleeping through most of it yeah, she'd be up and then she'd go sleep and then she'd be up and then she'd go sleep and then she'd go up and I never drug-tested her. So I didn't know and I didn't want them to know and They didn't ask yeah, so There you go. That's that's But I can't even describe for you fully what it what it took to keep that case together because She literally was not living in normal housing. She was definitely addicted to drugs. She definitely had a Sleep disorder. Yeah and Perkins key was a defense. I mean that's tough for me. It's that I love Clients that the majority of the public don't like I know but where do you go? I mean you have to go get him Well, no, I mean, well, I mean I was a public defender. I know I gate came to me Oh, I just they all showed up and I love that job And the reason why I love that job is that it's easy Karen not to like people because they're different than you or there are kinds of ways that like you don't relate to and What I have always found. This is that This is like the kind of thing I used to kind of When I approach somebody who is very hard to approach and that projects a sense of like unlike ability Does I remember that they were probably I know that I mean there were children one day Well, you do like everybody. I do like everybody because I think everybody has a story to tell so to me It's not about the personality. I want to know what's your story, but I feel I feel like I am like that also Yeah, which is why I like this job However, even that there's still some consequences which is Pulling your client out of a drug den so they can go and get their deposition taken finding clothes for your client to wear Just trying to find your clients a lot of the times, you know plaintiff litigation is a lot longer than Criminal defense in general the timeline can be years can be years and and and it's probably more challenging and But you know They get all your medical records. They get all your employment records. They interview all your friends they you know, they now they look at all your social media and your watch readouts and You know, they're constantly all over you. I don't have a problem with the client. That is not You know white collar. In fact, I prefer a diversity of clients and especially those that are need but there's a there's a line there between What is what is really what makes it really difficult for you as a lawyer to do your job without with a client that's like So not following yeah seizures are hiding things from you or yeah. Yeah making things really difficult. Well to be clear I Mean I work I'm pretty much working on every case that you have Yeah, and a majority of the clients I would say our clients That would have otherwise a lot of the clients would have otherwise access to justice issues if they're not represented by us sure because they would not be able to have the type of access they're getting to the court systems and If there are issues with like not liking a client I think that it's about whether or not those issues are making it difficult for us to cooperate with one another and there's like a Personality conflict because of those issues How do you navigate those because to me that's been the challenge It's not that the person is not likable because they've done something horrific or to have a quality that makes people disdain them It's that are our personalities so in conflict that you can't trust my advice. You can't listen to me. How do you deal with that? Well now I just tell them they should go get another lawyer. Okay, but do you give up like super fast? Or do you give it some time? So I have some triggers. What are your triggers disrespect to the staff? Okay, pretty much gone gone Yeah, okay what else I know that we have we have let clients go who have disrespect and it doesn't even matter how good their cases are Yeah, that's right. That's right. And then lying lying You're a public defender. Yeah, but I Think like no because what happens when somebody lies so this is what we always tell people when they come in Yeah, what are you scared of the other side knowing first of all, I guarantee you we've heard that or worse before Yeah, and and we have attorney-client. Yeah, so we just need to know so we can prepare For whatever the bad thing is so that we can address it So we don't want to get it by surprise, but you're not gonna get that in the outset If you go to your a therapist and they go like tell me everything that's going on It's gonna take a little time to go. Here's what all the things I'm afraid of but we do We do put that in their head like you need to tell us and they may not tell us right then but they're gonna tell Us and it's normally not like oh, I lied about this whole accident. That's never gonna be it it's something that they're ashamed of like, yeah, you know, I Just an example I Had trouble when I was a juvenile, yeah, or I you know, I I had alcoholism problems or it's something That's normally shame based that people don't want to tell you But sometimes it isn't for example You know, this is a long time ago more than 20 years ago There's a client and we were putting together the case I already told him that you got to tell us whatever you're worried about the other side knowing and he you know We're not gonna judge you for it. We just need to know and We We're trying to put together their wage loss and there was a pretty big gap It was like what's going on there? It turned out he was he was in jail for rape So I just didn't want to represent a rapist So was he a convicted rapist? Oh, he was in jail for like a long time Okay, so people can be in jail without being convicted. I just didn't want to okay Well, that's a so that I think is a different thing. Mm-hmm is that you are not morally aligned with the client and that's important to tell the client and I didn't want to and and I Wasn't a brand-new lawyer, but I wasn't you know, a 40-year lawyer I was like somewhere in the middle and I just I just told him I Don't want to I don't want to represent you Yeah That must have been a hard decision. It wasn't well, no for for him it was but for me it wasn't I mean we put time into it. We probably represented him for like three or four months It was you know, so look we hadn't filed a lawsuit or anything. They weren't prejudiced. They could go get another attorney, but Yeah, I struggle with that, you know because I Don't have a I don't have a constitutional duty to represent a client like you do as a public defender, right? But like that they don't get another thing. You'll get another lawyer. That's that's not yeah grossed out about that. Frankly I think the that quality of being a public defender and and having a constitutional obligation to protect people That quality is just inherently in me And so part of like when somebody tells me something that I would be me myself I'm just like to me that's about me and not them and so I'm very suspicious of myself When I start to make cases about myself, I become very like suspicious I go that's not an you know, if but if if mine if my Personality is dominating those aspects of the case. I'm just being candid with them like you were like I can't do it But I would tell them like I'm just thinking about myself too much. I can't focus on you well, let me tell you where this comes from what my No problem in saying I'm not gonna represent you. So I Don't really talked about this a lot with you But yeah, my mother was a lawyer and I work for my look my mother Starting from when I graduated from high school. I was kind of a paralegal But pretty much I did legal work. What did your mom do? She was a lawyer Well, what kind of a law basically you walk in the door and she did it That's what happened. Yes people were general practitioners back then. What was her name? Mary fun Kohler Mary fun Kohler. Did she go by Mary Mary fun? Well, we called her fungus fungus That's sweet, yes, we did that's sweet. We all called her MFK. I called my mother MFK She's a badass but so she would take anyone that came in off the street. So here's so Here's a story from I was probably still a teenager and I used to have to type out the wills So people would come in to get wills done. Yeah, and not only did I have to type them out. I Had to type them out in triplicate What does that mean this means first of all, there's a typewriter an IBM Selectric and there's actually a correct button on it but I couldn't use that if you're doing triplicate because that's a sheet of paper a sheet of carbon paper a sheet of paper sheet of carbon paper and a sheet of paper all in there So if I made a typo, I had to start all over again. She wouldn't let me use white out Yeah, so I had to do the wills like that I'm a very good typist, but it was a pain because inevitably I would make one mistake or something like that almost when I was done person comes in to get their will done and I don't know this person, but I know one of the person's family members. This is a Lake Forest Park. Everybody knows everybody Yeah, small community small town so the person who's a woman Is gonna leave all their assets to you know This person and then this person and then this niece and this niece because there's some nieces and nephews However Wanted a special codicile That is a codicile. Well special sub special provision. Okay special That if and then by the since I knew them I would have known one of the nieces who would be at my age Yeah, right So that means still a teen yeah, if this niece is married to a black Person then they get nothing Now Not against the law wait even today I'm just saying not against the law. My mother says this is it and I said That that's not right. I And then she said Explain to me. I'm not the lawyer. She said They have the right to do this. They have the right to be biased and prejudiced because my mother was at the time was not She's in a mixed marriage my mother was in a mixed marriage Yeah At a time when it was very frowned upon including by my by my father's parents very upset about that. I Refused I said I'm not typing that and she said yes you are This is your job you don't have the right can't say no to MFK and I could not I did it you did it You said no to not only did I do it? I couldn't tell my friend about it. What do you mean? You couldn't tell it. Oh because it was her knee client. Sorry So I Had no power in that situation I mean, my mother was technically correct and I Vowed I would never do that. I tried to never be in a position to do that Now I did represent bad people when I was an insurance defense lawyer. Yeah, but other than that as a plaintiff lawyer We can choose our clients. Yeah. Yeah, so That's why I have no hesitation. Yeah for me I Represented somebody who had Violently violently abused his spouse and It was really hard for me because my mom was violently abused when I was growing up and I had the opportunity to walk away from the case, but I didn't Because I thought that it was not right for me to make the case about myself that That I could maybe help this person understand What he was doing to his spouse and what has he been doing to his spouse for some time? He faced an inevitable sentence. He was gonna go away The question was how long? I really used it as an opportunity To spend a lot of time with him to understand why he felt it necessary to beat his wife senselessly and Try to understand why he was okay with that at times but not at other times clearly felt remorse and I thought it really productive that Some of the beatings were captured on audio Because the wife would constantly call 9-1-1 and a terror in her voice the The shaking in her voice the tears I Went into meetings and I would play the tapes and I would keep playing the tapes I never told him why but just keep playing the tapes and And One day he just realized what he was doing He just sort of realized that the fear that he was putting in her In her heart and in her mind and the terror that he was instilling in her and he turned it around He guy turned it around and and so How do you know that he turned it around because I know after he got out represented them for Years after that and and it never happened. He was he was on supervision. He was he was Monitored she stayed married to him. Yeah That worked through it. I mean, I can't make decisions for the people I don't know if it was the best decision or not, but like You know in that experience Kind of like touched on me because my mom would not leave my stepdad for many years and it made no sense to me It just didn't make any sense to me And and it just was like why do we continue to stay with this person who is so bad? and and I just learned that people are complicated Karen and they're just Things are not so black and white, you know about like, you know, this this is like a You know, this is just you you do this you're a bad person and and and there's no there's it's just more complicated so I get you know, and and so to me, it's like It's hard for me to make those decisions and be hard and fast about them. I Super respect what you the decision you made because it's like a core of yours. It's like one of your moral moral moral commandments Which is you are? anything that has to do with Marginalizing people discriminating against people. It just causes you to like stop. I Respect that and I back you a thousand percent. I just I don't know why I can't be that way I'm just I can't be that way. I I seek understanding I seek redemption and And it's it's it's a limitation. I have it's a blind spot. I have Well, it's you know It's funny how a lot of what we do is stems back from or into like what do we go through why? What why and for me? for me I'm really good with you Until something happens and you break the trust or you break you break something with me and then I'm really good at just saying Goodbye, I got to tell you that that's cruel. That's a cruel quality of yours Karen and you know because I Understand that if you use that tool professionally, you know, but personally that would be devastating. So that's a devastating choice I never I didn't always used to be that way. I used to be very much like you But it changed You know and it changed it changed when I went through my divorce process Which took five years of my life Okay, because I kept trying to hold it together to find that way that to turn it around to continue to do that process that you did and ultimately It needed to stop but he betrayed you but I've had I've done it since then with other people yeah, a friend that I had for Dozens of years who finally just finally went Completely over the line and that was just that was it for me And I and I've had a problem and I you know, I still get I'm in coaching Therapy Of Things like that I run through and She was proud of me for that because my issue is that I have no problem confronting someone None, unless I love them Then I have a problem. What do you mean by that? Unpack that if you love somebody you can't go to them and say what you're doing to me is cool I have I can't I have a confrontation issue. I want everyone to be happy in my life that I love. Oh my god, you're You always tell me like you can't make everybody happy no, I know well do as I say not as I do mo but in my work life Mike's laughing in my work life as long as I don't love you I am gonna be I am going because you have to do these things a number one for self-preservation and longevity of a career You do. No. Oh, yes. I disagree with you. You don't do that You will get you will get no. Yes, okay I'm gonna push back a little because self-preservation and longevity are illusions in my opinion. They're just illusions there are these magic little things we create in our minds like like like something's gonna go bad and then Everything's gonna collapse and like there is no real control over those aspects two things. You said to me. Let me finish place Wait, wait Why is this why is this bothering you so much because because It's bothering me because I think it's a little unfair. I think it's a little unfair You described two relationships five years and X Dozens of years a friend for you to come to the conclusion that I've had enough That is not you break my trust right away and it's done. That's an experience Yes, and that lets you that so what that tells me is is that no you do have Space for grace and redemption definitely and then so maybe this concept of like you break my trust and it's done That's not accurate. That's not who you are. But in litigation, it's different and I'll give you another example Okay, I'm gonna keep giving you examples. Yeah Person been representing them for like a year and a half. We're getting ready for mediation and we find out that the They're from a different country and so they have different ways of looking at certain amassing property or wealth turns out that The wage loss claim is based upon Incorrect information severely incorrect information Because they're getting funds from other people to do the things that they're doing and Now as an officer of the court That is intolerable. I will I'm not going to jeopardize my license for that claim That's totally different Yes, but is a lot of what you experience in your past informing how you are forming relationships with clients in my experience Yes, I mean all of it is informed by like my ability to create and maintain relationships I know it's a professional relationship governed by different rules, but I can't compartmentalize that like I'm bringing that experience to it So what I've felt and child felt as an adult my friendships they come into that Because that's the way you build a relationship But what you're talking about is is that you're just not gonna like lie and present something that's inaccurate To a court because you're gonna have professional consequences. I know it's different You're gonna make all these exceptions It's it's most rules rule But my my thing is you're good with me until you're not and then if you're not then you're not However, I get to that point. It's rare You know, okay, that's good. It's rare. It doesn't happen even yearly, but it does happen. Yeah from time to time and I used to also have this thing where I'd ask the paralegals Are we do we have a problem? Do we have a problem client? Oh, and if they said yes Then I would want to know more and that person if they are truly a problem. Yeah a they're disrespectful to the staff Be they're just not and one of those ways is just never returning phone calls. You have to track them down Where are they and there's no good reason for that They are you know, they're doing You only know what you know, and a lot of people that come to a law firm like this. They're trying to sell themselves Right, so it's not a lot different the kind of client we get now is different than the client I got earlier on where they're They weren't trying to do that They're trying to put on a real a real good front and maybe they can't quite live up to it So you have to have that spidey sense to realize like something's not right here okay, so and you can't risk your reputation on someone that is Not who they say they are aside from the reputation talk about the economics because we can only take so many cases yeah, and so and Cases like it's an investment. Yeah, it's an investment So huge investment now speak to me about the economics a little bit of a what what the calculation is Economically because we got it. We got to support people. We have to pay wages and pay her Well, like in a small firm that when I was in, you know with Pat the play or you know smaller firms It's not that big, you know, we handled a higher volume of cases and some of them are quite small I could go to trial a lot of times. I would take a case that was smaller So I could just have a nice, you know week-long trial. I needed it. Yeah And you could I could do trial I could do cases for like five or ten thousand dollars out of pocket Yeah, not that doesn't count your attorney time, but just what I had to paid, you know invest in it here It's like hundreds of thousands typically. Yeah, sometimes close to a million dollars in costs and We can't do that if we don't Completely have faith and trust in who the client is and who they are and what the case is all about We we cannot make that investment You've taught me well how to do this Which is like when I'm when I'm when I'm meeting a new client potential client to come introduced to the firm I'm thinking about the economics right at the outset and thinking about how much Financially does the firm have to likely put out on the case? And is this worth our time because we are we are obligated to all of our other clients. It's gonna take away So I'm assessing I am assessing the person's Personality and the relationship is this going to work? I'm doing that but that that's been a that's been a tough shift for me from the public defender because I just said You know, I just get my client well, there's tough shift for anybody going from just a normal office to a you know more You know catastrophic focused office. Yeah, it's just a lot more at stake But also there's another factor Mo. What is that? I want to like my clients. Okay Well, you have the luxury because I want a lot of people want to be like him I want to I want to enjoy I want to feel like I'm so happy that you're happy. I want to I want to And it so does I wanted my staff to live working with the client, you know, yeah, I did you're I'm reminded of Interaction you had with someone and they were like, why why are you taking us? And then you were like, I like you and I just was like it was so sweet the way you said it because they're like they felt like their case was not significant Mike and they were like They were they you know, they were like The velvet hammer and then she was like no, it's Karen and I like you and and there was just this like sweet connection between these human beings who had suffered harm and It wasn't catastrophic per se and Karen was just like no I got you and it was a sweet So so it's it's not always dollars and cents. It's sometimes you're right. I can see that you're making decisions It's rarely dollars and cents other than I have an obligation to the law firm and your partners. Yeah to To and also I only have so much time Yeah, so I have to make these decisions on like Can I take this case? Can we take this case given our caseload given the economics of the law firm? Can we take it? That's a whole nother discussion. Yeah, but but No, I mean we will see I Think that you maybe you hold on stuff longer than I do. I also compartmentalize Yeah more than you do. Yeah, I don't I do I do I'm heavily heavily compartmentalized Yeah, boy, that's a that's a lot of energy Mike is compartmentalization It's like does that take a lot of effort for you know for me? Yeah No, not necessarily. I ironically my Sort of outlook is similar to what Karen said like I I'm totally behind people But if they do something to break that trust They don't get many chances and once it's over it's over. I've I've cut people out of my lives more than once For that very reason. Yeah, and I won't ever completely cut him out Well, I have I have kind of yeah, but normally it's just like they've gotten demoted. Yeah Oh time I mean, there's people that I demoted there's people that I had Conflict with you know that I thought I would never talk to again and most of them I've talked to again and some of them I've become friendly with again, but It takes a lot of time. And I mean I've gotten softer in my older years than I was when I was younger I'm the opposite. I've gotten harsher you have yeah Yeah Because time is short And I want to spend it with the people that I that I love and that I care about and vice versa You're convincing me of that that is the one thing I like the the seed you planted in my head about Time is short. It's important commodity and you want to be thoughtful and intentional with who you put in your sphere I agree with you. Yeah, and and it's forced me to have to confront some of my you know some of my personality traits about Accommodating. Well, let me tell you about another case. I had where client wasn't so much difficult. Yeah as So I went to trial on this case and during voir dire jury selection, I Literally one of the questions I asked Where do people that belong on the Jerry Springer? show Have the right To go to trial Because this case was crazy you mean if they were on the show Well, did something happen if they were if they were a person that could be on the jury's all Okay, there was that much drama in their life. Yes. I got you Yeah, and they're like, yeah, they should be able to and so I had primed the jury. Yeah, or what was going to come? Yeah, my client live a riotous life and she was a riotous person and she was I was like It was a disputed case all the way around against the city of Redmond She was stopped on a two-lane highway where the speed limit was 50 and she was struck from behind by an ambulance And the ambulance driver said that she did not have her left turn signal on She said she had her left turn turn signal on you Donna. They did not have their lights on they were going to some kind of training and he just he hit that her little pickup and just sent it and anyway broke her broke her back and it was it was a Real mess well, I I Love her even just thinking about her name because I'm compartmentalized I take the come I take that off the shelf come down and then I'm like right there. That's how I work That's how my mind works. So like I don't think about her for Years and then here I am talking and I'm like, you know, you get that But does that thing the thing that? Goes up in the in the warehouse and goes over there gets gets a box comes and then comes back down crane the crane Whatever that thing is So now it's open. I can just see her and I know everything about her So she lived in this house at the bottom of the hill where I lived in actually I used to go by there and see her and if she had a younger boyfriend and they were always calling the police on each other primarily him and When we got to and there was other weird things like so emotional distress is a component There's a big issue of you know Her cow whose name was Molly was killed and so she was very distraught about that So there was a big whole issue that the defense was making that her emotional distress was related to killing of Molly Molly the cow Instead of you know, it was just well, but anyway defense lawyer the case had been continued like five times the time before this defense lawyer had been I Had an emergency issue like two days before the trial so finally we're in trial the very very inconvenient Kent the defense lawyer had blown up all of the domestic violence call charges into big posters and literally lined the whole perimeter of the courtroom with them there was so many of them and the issue was of course that All of her emotional distress was related to the seesaw relationship Abuse the spouse I ended up I Can't remember I even called him as a witness. I think I ended up saying I was going to and then not Or maybe he was up there. I can't remember but it was such a wackadoodle case and the jury loved her and And they did not believe the ambulance driver and this is right after 9-eleven Yeah, so they did not believe the ambulance driver who was like a hero. They found that they were completely at fault and Gave us a very very great jury verdict. So I Have done that many times in my career Which is to just show what we've talked about which is humanize the client show who they are Let them I really believe that when you put on a perfect plaintiff. You're gonna lose a case Nobody believes there's such a thing There is no such thing moral of the story lean into the truth at the very beginning Don't wait for your case to even start. I did it right in voir dire Yeah, I mean there's like a Jerry Springer show and it was like the Jerry Springer show. Yeah, that's good. That's good That's a good lesson because it tells you it's like don't be afraid of the bad Bad issues and just put it out there and just humanize it I can still remember her up there kind of yelling and screaming and crying all at the same time and the witness Dan I was like, oh So so the takeaway here is is that Relationships can be difficult Sometimes people have hard lines and they're gonna have to end the relationships with the client. There's economics involved but If you're gonna represent a person that you know is not likable You have a responsibility to humanize them and you know what I've heard from her since she's doing well fantastic yeah, I mean she's doing well and She felt vindicated and the jury the jury seen a lot worse She didn't pretend she didn't try to hide who she was So, there you go. There you go. And that's that there it is