What Compels Us to Become Lawyers

Episode 12: What Compels Us to Become Lawyers 

Content note: This episode includes discussion of domestic violence, trauma, and mental health challenges, including suicidal ideation. Please take care while watching.

Karen reads a college essay she wrote at 18, predicting her future as a civil rights lawyer. Mo shares his contrasting journey through trauma, poverty, and survival. Together they explore what drives someone to pursue law, how early life shapes purpose, and why two people with such different paths ended up in the same courtroom.

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Timestamps:
00:00:00 Intro
00:01:30 Karen reads her college essay from 1979
00:09:20 Mo shares his childhood and trauma
00:20:21 The lesson that saved Mo’s life
00:26:42 The power of presence in law and life
00:34:01 You’re not alone

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Transcript

0:07

It's foggy morning. I'm here with you. You are. Okay. And I think we are going to talk about our compulsion to be a lawyer, like how deep-seated it is. Where was our, the, I mean mine started earlier than yours. Much earlier. But there's still this drive and compulsion to end up being a career lawyer like this. Like there's a lot of people that become lawyers and never practice law. Or they become lawyers and they do a job that they don't like and they get their joy out of doing other things. Yeah. And then there's a group of people that are in a profession that is consuming. And this can, this is the case here for, for me and for you more so probably than even when you were a public defender. Yes. And we can, and we're, we're going to be talking about all this stuff, but I'm going to go way back down into memory lane. I like that. I have two papers here that I've saved over the years. The first one was written on May 9th, 1979. I would have been a freshman in college. Yes. I was in Iran and I was a toddler. You were barely a toddler. I was like a year old or something. Okay. All right. This is a, it's two pages long, double spaced. So I'm going to read it. Is it typewritten? Yes. That is so sweet. Did you have like a IBM typewriter? No, this was graded. I only got a 3.7. This one was, this one was graded. Okay. All right. Let's see. And this was before computers. So this is like typewriter. Okay. I'm going to close my eyes and listen because I want to hear this. Where will I be in 10 years? It's a question I hardly ask myself as I am young and still not worried about my future. Yet when I examine my past upbringing, present living situation, and various expectations of life, I find I can pretty accurately predict what my place in society will be by that time. My past plays an important role in determining my future. I am the product of a family in which I am the oldest child. Not only did I have my younger siblings to boss around and act like a queen to, but I also had a substantial amount of responsibility placed upon me by my parents, which included setting a proper example for the rest of the kids and often being placed in charge of things like cleaning up the living room. To my childhood under these circumstances, I attribute my current ability to be authoritative and my general nature of being very self-assured. I was 18 when I wrote this. I'm just saying. I see. I see. Added to this is the fact that I grew up under the influence of my father, who was a professor, and my mother, who was a lawyer. Having professionals as parents resulted in me becoming extremely cultured. I played piano for traveled around the world extensively, read numerous books, magazines, newspapers, and became extremely susceptible to following in one of their footsteps, for I was constantly hearing talks about the lab or the office. When I was in the ninth grade, I knew that I was meant to become a lawyer. By that time, it had become such a part of me, thanks to my mother's influence, that even now I cannot imagine living my life without being involved in the process of law. Thus, I can accurately say that in ten years, I will be a lawyer, as it is a part of my nature which must be fulfilled. Also, in ten years, I will be fairly rich. I should clarify this point by saying that my goal is not to be rich, but rather I assume I will be rich. I take becoming wealthy for granted as I grew up having enough money to meet my needs and desires, and as my desires will be considerably greater in ten years, the money will also have to be of a larger quantity. However, though I expect to be rich, I don't know if I will be so through my law practice. Usually, the corporation or salaried lawyers are those with the large incomes. My business will not be of that nature. Instead, I am interested in civil liberty cases and other matters wherein a person's rights are at stake. Money cannot be my only reason for being an attorney, since so many victims of injustice have small pocketbooks. Also, I will either head a law firm or be in private practice, as I cannot tolerate working under anyone's supervision, aside of my personality, which probably stems from being the oldest child in my family. Therefore, I will have the additional costs and problems related to running an office, which will also affect my ability of getting wealthy. Thus, if someone came and asked me where I would be in ten years, my answer would not be vague and uncertain, for I know I will be a lawyer by then. The only question remaining is whether I will be wealthy or not. My goodness, that's crazy. Mike, Mike, Mike, what do you think about that? Is that crazy? It sounds like a young person to me, that's for sure. I don't know that it's, I mean, you succeeded in all of those, I believe, so you were correct. But I think it was quite presumptuous of a young person to think that that's what was going to happen for sure. I mean, you know, I mean, did I live a privileged life? I did. But by the time I wrote that, so in May of 1979, just so you know, I had already obtained a restraining order against my very first boyfriend. He who was stalking me, there wasn't a name called stalking, he was stalking me at the UW, where, I mean, I almost felt like I wasn't going to pass my first year, because he was stalking me, which is a huge place he would come, he would, he would, I would be coming back to my car down on Mott Lake, which were thousands of cars. And I and he would be by my car, or he would find where I was in classes. And then he actually broke into my place and kidnapped me and brought me to his parents house, and his brother beat him up. But however, you know, I did. So it was a very, it's, I lived led a privileged life, but I wasn't necessarily just unscathed by life at the time that I wrote it. I love what's crazy to me is how clear you are. And then the second thing is, is that you were committed to accomplishing goals. And you accomplish the goals, everything you've described there, you do. And like the personality part that you described about yourself, about being the oldest and picking up or picking up around the house. You still do that. You're constantly going around and picking up. And like making sure everything is like nothing, if not predictable. I mean, that I think is astonishing that, that, that, that writing, I love that writing. That's sweet. I think, I think, you know, I wanted to start with that. There's a second one in there. But what I want to talk about, but I really want to talk about this first one, because I led a privileged life. Yeah. I mean, like I said, it wasn't perfect. Yeah. But I had a lot of opportunity. I had a mother who, even though I didn't want to do what she did in terms of her practice, and I tried to be the opposite when I grew up, you came from totally different circumstances. I did come from totally different circumstances. And we've, we've talked a little bit about, you know, the bartending, you know, the bartending and the shopkeeping. But I want to talk about little Mo up to the age of I was here, which was 18. Yeah. So you were two when I wrote this. Yes. 17 years past. Yes. Tell me about if little Mo had written this letter, or this first, where would I have been in 10 years? And who were you at that age? I mean, I never wrote anything like this. I just was not in the mindset of thinking about life through what you were thinking about what kind of, you know, touched me is I have to admit that, you know, I was envious listening to what you were describing to me, envious that you had a father who was a professor and a mother who was a lawyer who was speaking into your life about, you know, the prospect of, of a future. And then that influenced you to want to help others. I was living in a space where, you know, surrounded by, you know, physical and sexual violence, I was surrounded by abuse, I was surrounded by illness. And I was sort of in a space where I was just constantly in, in like fight or flight mode And resources. And resources. We didn't have much resources. You know, we came here, we didn't have a lot of money. We didn't want to come to the United States. We were compelled to that, you know, the country, you know, Iran, where we're at was in a war. It was very difficult for us to leave, leave our family behind. And when we came here, we did not have much. My mom, you know, was worked at a deli, she worked for an insurance company, and she was just trying to make ends meet. And, you know, my stepdad was a horrible person. He was just a terrible person. And I would remember, I'm trying to think where I was in my mind, you know, in, in, in my youth. And I remember, I would lay in bed, I know this distinctly, and I would just lay down and just think about the universe. It was, I was so overwhelmed. I just wanted to escape and think about the universe and think about my existence. I couldn't make sense about my life, why my circumstances were such. I did, I have to admit, I thought that poverty was the reason I suffered. I really thought that poverty was why I suffered. And I thought that because I was not an American by birth, that that is why I suffered. And I owned that. I just said that that's, that's me, that's like what I've been given. And, and I tried to figure out how to respond to that by learning on my own. How old was your, how old were you when your mom finally called the police? And, and tell us that story or leading up to it, like. I just, you know. I don't, I don't remember how old you, how old, how old you were. I don't remember, I don't remember, like, I do remember the police being called many times. I do, I do remember distinct episodes of severe violence. And then, and I do remember that, you know, one night my, you know, my stepdad just, I don't know why, but they were just, I remember they were beating on each other senselessly and, and. How old were you? God, I can't remember, Karen. Like elementary school? Either elementary or middle. Okay. And I do remember that, like, I was so scared and I just, like, froze and I just threw up. And, like, it caused them to stop beating each other. And then I remember the police coming and talking to them. And at some point, and I bet you my sister knows the details better than I do. She's older. At some point he did go to jail and they took him. I do remember a night where we slept in our cars and, and I suspect there were more nights than just that night. And what we would do is we would go to a park. I remember the park. It was Pioneer Park. And then we would spend a day and I would just go play in the park. And then, you know, my mom would bring like a blanket and some food and we would have a picnic and I would play with some kids. And then at the end of the day, we would go back and sleep in the car. And I do recall a police officer one night got us a hotel room. A motel room paid for us so we didn't sleep in the car. And, you know, I do remember, you know, going to school with ripped clothes. You know, I do remember, you know, just moving and living with friends because of conditions in the home. You know, and I do remember my sister suffered a lot. And then I do remember not being able to do anything. And like feeling like a coward for many years. You're a child. Yeah, but, you know, it's I just couldn't think about my future. I just could not think about it. I was living like moment to moment. And, you know, here we are in a country, in a place, in a time where we are told that everyone should just be judged as having the same equal opportunity. That DEI, A is no longer necessary. That we're both lawyers and therefore we went through the same journey. Yeah. It's it's what do you think about that? I mean, because we didn't go through the same journey. I know. I know. I know. I understand what what that is. But here's where I struggle. I don't want to be a victim. No. You know, I don't want to be treated. I don't want to be treated differently because I went through this. And it's like, I don't know what that is. I don't know if it's like a pride flipping thing or if it's like a but I just don't want to be seen as a victim because that just reminds me of being a coward. That reminds me of being this person who just didn't have the courage to like stop my stepdad from doing what he was doing or like protecting my mother or protecting my sister. I don't I don't want to be that because I just like so part of my rejection and by the way, I don't reject the concept of diversity, equity, inclusion for others. I reject it for me. I don't want it. I don't want it. I don't have anything to do with it. I don't want any opportunity like that. But I'll you know, I mean, I'm I'm the same way we talked about like I didn't join women's groups or anything until much later on. And there's, you know, what is that? Right? What is that? And just because you come from, I came from privilege and you didn't, I probably experienced more discrimination in the legal field than you do. Yes, that no, no, that that that hands down hands down is so interesting, right? Like, yeah, it is very, it's all very interesting. But when I hear you talk, like you just talked about, you know, your childhood versus my childhood. That is the human experience. I mean, that is a range of human experience that exists. People, you know, I personally think you're extremely brave, because you talk about it. And you have, you have, your journey has been so much greater than my journey to be where you are. There's just no doubt about it. I've never I've the first time I met you, you know, and you wrote your terrible bio. And I said, Well, you need to get personal. And you did. And I was like, I mean, I cried the first time I saw it. You know what you've gone through. So I that that thing that I wrote, yeah, that very self assured appearing kind of entitled. Yeah, I wish it and it's, it'll come true. I still kind of have that. Yeah. My kids say that's my superpower is having a wish and making it come true. Mainly having others make it come true them. But that positivity. So I have felt that one of the greatest gifts that my parents gave me, especially my mom, who in the face of complete adversity, and being 100% wrong, always thought she was right. And I don't feel that way. But there's a constant positive, positive. There's a constant positivity about me. It's a hallmark of me. I'm very positive. Yes, yes. I love that. So are you? Yes. I love that about you. Yes. So then I want to talk about just that of, again, also with the law, but just as a human experience, like, it affected what I wanted to do in law. I did not want to be corporate. I did not. I didn't. The whole thing about money, like, oh, I cringe when I see that. But and we're going to talk about money. Yes. Because people don't talk about money. And you should talk about money, because money, what makes the world go round. But how, again, from my experience being a positive person, that's so much easier to fathom than for you. Like, how did you do that? Become a positive person? And were you always? Obviously not. No, no. I struggled. I struggled in my teens. I struggled in my 20s. What does that mean? Like struggled. Depression. Post-traumatic stress disorder. I have had general anxiety disorder throughout my whole life. I still experience anxiety. But it got very bad in my early 20s. I was suicidal after September 11th, after my mom died. And so I was confronted with a moment in my life where I had to make a decision where I was going to succumb and submit to what was overwhelming me or confront it. I was fortunate to meet a fantastic human being in New York who was my therapist, who just was protected me from myself and who provided me a solution. And, you know, he took me to a mental health hospital. And I spent two and a half weeks there. I was not addicted to drugs. I was not using alcohol at the time. They put me in the geriatrics ward. And I was surrounded by some of the most wonderful people who were struggling at the late stages of their lives. With their own issues. And they took me in. And they gave me some simple solutions. One was, you're not that important. Let's just let that resonate. What do you think about that one, Mike? You're not that important. Oh, I fully agree with that. I mean, I've had similar issues myself. And I think realizing your place in the world and how, while you can be important in situations, but insignificant in the overall scheme of everything, allows you to not be as anxious. It takes away some of the pressure, some of that. I mean, depression, to me, I always kind of describe it as a weight that you carry around that other people don't. And they can't see it. So they don't understand how heavy that weight can be to carry around, even in the most simple situations. So it can help you release some of that weight for sure. And it's not, I mean, it's never easy to do that, but that's great advice, I would say. Yeah. Is that how you felt about it? Yeah. I mean, it took me a while to understand what that meant. That pain is relative. That all of us experience what I was experiencing in some form or another. It equalizes us, all of us. And it's really how you allow it to impact how you see yourself in the world that dictates the life you're going to live. And I had a choice to make. And me not being that important, I started to put that in my mind and started to, that was my ground foundational principle, to try to focus on my mindset. That I could get up in the morning and say, boy, today's a good day. I wonder what surprises are out there for me. Art, art helped me, poetry, and ways to process what was going on in my mind. And then eventually, I was nudged towards the law. I wouldn't even say that the law was prevalent in my mind. Well, let's stop there because I want to still, I want to know the other lessons, but I do want to high point this whole idea of waking up and basically self-talking. You don't need to re-self-talk. Whereas someone like me, again, I'm not saying that I have lived a trouble-free life because I haven't. However, I've always woken up happy for the day. It's very rare that I haven't. I love that. And, but I take it for granted, you know? So I think sometimes like, well, I'm not going to be, maybe I'm not as strong as you. Maybe when bad things happen again, you know, my way of coping is my way of coping, which is to just keep charging forward and ahead and through. That's what I'm going to do. I mean, I'm still that, there's still so much of me in there as kind of arrogant as that seems. I always have this unerring belief that everything's going to be okay. That's how I self-talk myself. Everything's going to be okay. What's the worst that can happen? What's the worst that can happen? That's always how I self-talk myself. But for you to wake up and you had to learn how to look forward to that day. Yes. Again, yeah, it was so stark. And so what was the next lesson? Well, the next lesson that I learned was, you know, this idea that like, you know, how much power you have over the choices you make, like the relationships you have. And then at the same time, acknowledging what you truly you don't have control over life. And to understand that, you know, this part of my brain that constantly, and it still does at times, trying to make sense of why these things happen to me is really wasted, is a wasted exercise. And it's almost like trying to understand how time exists. Time exists. Right now, I'm here with you. I have a moment with you and Mike and we're present with each other and we're just present. And then there's a part of my brain that wants to go back into time and go over things. And then there's a part of my brain that wants to go future, what's going to happen, trying to make sense of things. And it relies on my past experiences to tell me what I should expect in the future. You know what- Can you give us an example? Yeah. Example of that is like, you know, you're a coward. That's the voice in the back of the head. You don't have any courage. So the future says that, you know, you're never going to amount to anything. That's what the future says, if it relies on that information. And understanding that those are lies I'm telling myself. Those are lies, like getting up and putting myself in the present moment and saying like, I need to eliminate this time I'm wasting looking in the past and looking into the future and just focus to where I am right now. And all I have control over right now is how I am in this moment. And am I being honest with you? Am I being truthful? Am I being myself? That was the hardest thing I had to teach myself. In addition to waking up and being positive self-talk, it's exercise, Karen. It's like learning how to run. So how would you, in one sentence, what is that? What is that rule? The rule is, is that you must be present. You must be present. And when you see yourself like fleeting away from the moment, I'm right here. So that is, I believe, one of the most important rules for human, not only for you as for survival, but also for just human interaction. And I mean, you've been there talking to someone and you can tell like they're not paying attention to you. I used to do that with my kids all the time at the kitchen table when they'd be doing their homework and I'd be working on my stuff and they'd be talking to me and I would be listening to them out of one ear and doing my stuff the other ear. And they would always be furious with me. And I learned I need to get my eyes, I get my attention. And then the other more calculated part of me, I'm going to be really frank with you, knows, especially my trial lawyer, that is the superpower of a trial lawyer to be present. There is a charisma involved there because you are seeing the person you're communicating with and they know you're seeing them, which is the human, the humans crave that, right? To be acknowledged. So you have that connection. You're looking at them. They know you see them and all you care about is them. And that's how I do direct exam. And in fact, I've had cases before where I didn't even meet the witness before. And maybe I was brought in to try a case at the last minute, which I used to do all the time. Friday, can you try this case on Monday? Yes, I will. Did not know these people. I literally, I called it the mind melt that Spock does. And I'm very comfortable in it. I'm not worried about it. I'm not concerned about like, oh no, I don't know this data or that data. I knew what I wanted out of this witness generally. And they didn't need to be my best friends. I didn't need to know where they lived or anything. I just needed to know that for this next half hour, hour, they were going to be talking to me. I was going to be talking to them to communicate to the jury on a very trust-based level. And I've seen you do that. And that's, but it's being, yes. I've seen you do that. It's being in the moment. Nobody else matters. The person knows it. And plus, I'm a very comfortable person because you don't have a lot of conflict in me. I'm pretty much here I am. My hair is like a little crazy today. And it's just like, I'm not self-conscious when I'm in trial or when I'm talking to anybody. I mean, I feel that, I mean, that's one of the primary reasons I wanted to work here is because when we talked, I felt that you were fully present with me and you were talking to me and we really wanted to know who I was. That's the issue right there. That part, say that one again. Really wanted to know. You really wanted to know. You sincerely were interested in like to know who I was. But you kept, you were so curious and you were asking questions, not from like a sense of like, how's this going to benefit me? Give me this data. Give me this data. Give me this data. I'm going to calculate this out. And you were just curious. You were not like reaching a conclusion. You were not like deciding anything. You were just like, and what else? And what else? And I was like, oh, what a curious person asking me all these questions. Yes. Yes. No, I think that that's a strength that you possess. And I think, I know that that makes you a fantastic trial lawyer, but also it makes you a fantastic person. But it's not really a strength. It's just a way of choosing to be, as you said. When I say strength is that, maybe you're right. That's not an appropriate way to refer to it. But I don't see a lot of people doing that. It's hard to find. Especially now. Especially now. And so it's a rare, it's a rare. It shouldn't be. Yeah. It's a rare trait. It shouldn't be though, because we're losing something by not desiring that anymore. Yeah. Yeah. Was there anything else? That was two. That was two. And I think, you know, the third one was just keep making decisions. That was the third one. Like if you are, and by the way, I teach all these to the law students. I teach all of these. Life lessons. You know, life lessons in how I teach. And I even teach them to 11-year-olds that I coach basketball. You just keep making decisions. You'll wake up, you'll feel like something, like there are circumstances going on that are overwhelming you. You just make decisions. Don't think about it. Make little decisions. Put your shoes on. Make a little breakfast. Call a friend and tell them you love them. When you walk down the street, decide to smile. And like little things, right? Write a little note. And then all these little decisions start to collect and build momentum into a bigger decision and help you just so. And this is one I think that, by the way, I think you have all these three qualities. I'm very, well, again, privileged. Yeah, but you do. But like, I think this part, we professionally thrive, you and I. Because this is one of your major mantras. Go, go, go. Just keep making decisions. It'll work itself out. And being in that environment, boy, it just, I love it. I just love working with people like that. Proactive. Don't wait for it to happen to you. You got to go like, what are we going to do next? And next, and next, and next, and next, and next. Yeah, yeah. Those are the three things that have radically helped me. They have fundamentally changed my life. From a very early age. From a very early age. From a very early age, yeah. And then, I think the takeaway is, I hope, I mean, if people are listening to this, this is not about me wanting to talk about my life in a sense of like, I want your sympathy. What I'm trying to really convey is that you don't have to decide where you want to be professionally at a young age. You can decide things and let life take you there. If you have principles that keep you real, make sure that you're not, you realize that you're not that important, they will take you to a place where you can thrive. And that could be in your 20s, which is when I decided to want to be a lawyer. And I had no clue about any of that before. Yeah. Well, thanks for sharing, you know, really, you know, core parts of yourself, because everybody has their own stuff. Yeah. You're not alone. I would say, to me, I would have added a fourth. What's the fourth? You're not alone. Yeah. Oh, well, okay. I struggle with that. I know I'm not alone. But I got to tell you, I feel alone a lot of the times. And I mean, I have my wife. She's wonderful. I have my child. Wonderful. I have you. I have friends. So many friends. I have a lot of people. Mo is like, Mo is one of the most social people I've ever known. Yeah. Like, where are you? I'm going to this dinner. I'm going to that dinner. I'm going, where are you going? I'm going to go see Shelly for dinner. Why haven't you invited me? I wanted to come. Yeah. He just always is, go, go, go. Or this match, or that match. Or is basketball a match? Basketball, games. Games. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, for his son. So just constantly very, very social. And yet you feel alone. Yeah, I do feel alone. I feel alone in my thoughts. And I feel alone. Well, there's a difference between being fine with having a quiet time. And then there's lonely. Do you feel alone, or do you feel lonely? I don't know the difference. Help me understand. Alone is just like, I want to be alone. I want to go sit over there in that chair over there and read a book. And lonely is, I just feel like I'm in this all by myself. So I do not feel, personally, I don't. That was my definition. You can have your own definition. No, no, but this is important. Because I have never felt lonely personally that I'm in it by myself. Because Kathy's been a wonderful support system for me personally. Professionally, I felt that. I felt that. I felt that professionally in what I aspire to be as a lawyer. But until recently, until recently, I've started not to feel that. And it's my work experience with you. That, I got to be honest. I truly feel that our professional aspirations are so aligned, which makes it easy for me to understand instinctually what you want, and what you want, and what your aspirations are. And they're aligned, so I can follow it easily. But that's a first professionally, that I don't feel alone. And all I want to do is grow that, and protect that, and foster that. Because I think it's going to make the world a better place. Yeah, I think people are better when they're together. Yes, yes. Because, I mean, I think that this full-off room is better because we're all together. Yes. Right? If we were just solo people, the impact is completely different. Yes, yes. I fully agree with that. Lonely, it's that I don't like to be by myself, like doing things by myself. I'll have either a book in my ear with somebody talking to me, or I'll have music in my ear with somebody singing to me, or I'll be with people. I'm just not a person who likes to be by themselves. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, we won't analyze that. Okay. There's nothing wrong with it. No, there's nothing wrong with that. No, no. Because, as you would say, what kind of a dog are you? I'm a sloppy pup. Well, that's what I was described by my writing mentor in New York. A sloppy pup. All right. Well, I think that's good for today. Yeah, yeah. No, I thought that was good. That was like a therapy session, but I'm okay. Well, you never know where you're going to go. I didn't show him the writing ahead of time. I said, I found this thing. Found two of them, actually. We'll do the other one in a separate episode. But yeah, I found this one, and I think it'll be fun to go from this. It was a paper that I wrote when I was 18 years old. Yeah. And the takeaway, I think, is that you can become a lawyer by focusing on that desire early on in life, like you did, and accomplish all of the things you want when you're young. Or you can find your way there, through another path. So that's what compelled us to be lawyers. Yeah.