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The Velvet Hammer™ Podcast
Trial lawyers can be real people, too—and this podcast proves it. The Velvet Hammer™ is back, and this time, Karen Koehler isn’t going it alone. Known for her fearless advocacy, bold storytelling, and, yes, even the occasional backwards dress moment, Karen is teaming up with Mo Hamoudi, a lawyer, poet, and storyteller whose empathy and resilience add a whole new dynamic to the show.
Together, they’re pulling back the curtain on trial law, diving into bold topics, heartfelt stories, and the messy, hilarious moments that make trial lawyers human. This is an unscripted, raw, and fun take on life inside—and outside—the courtroom.
The Velvet Hammer™ Podcast
The Art of Driving Defense Lawyers Crazy
Episode 18: The Art of Driving Defense Lawyers Crazy
In this episode of The Velvet Hammer™ podcast, Karen Koehler and Mo Hamoudi break down the tactics that send defense lawyers into a spiral and explain why that’s not only strategic but also necessary.
Welcome to the “Flim Flam Sauce”, the unapologetic art of getting under opposing counsel’s skin without ever crossing a line. From the perfectly executed “head fake” (where you let your opponent walk into their own trap) to exposing moral hypocrisy in open court, Karen and Mo show how controlled provocation can shift power, pressure the truth, and tilt the playing field back toward justice.
They also confront the legal profession’s obsession with “civility.” Because when your client’s case is on the line, making the other side comfortable should never be the priority.
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Hosted by Karen Koehler and Mo Hamoudi, trial lawyers at Stritmatter Law, a nationally recognized plaintiff personal injury and civil rights law firm based in Washington State.
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Okay, we're going to share the secret sauce. It's called the Flim Flam Sauce. Do you know about the Flim Flam Sauce? Tell me. The Flim Flam Sauce is like the secret stuff that you go into the kitchen and you cook with and nobody knows and you make a delicious little little pie or something. But what we're going to talk about? We're going to talk about the sauce of how to make defense lawyers lose their mind and get under their skin.
Karen Koehler:Yes, we are.
Mo Hamoudi:Okay, let's talk about this.
Karen Koehler:I just love it so much.
Mo Hamoudi:Okay, all right, Okay, what do you do Like what do you do?
Karen Koehler:Well, let me just say I'll tell some stories because I have a long history of this. There's nothing better than driving a defense lawyer crazy Like that is my goal. We were just talking about goals. Driving a defense lawyer crazy Like that is my goal. We were just talking about goals. My goal, to have fun in a case is to just get underneath their skins like as much as possible.
Karen Koehler:In fact, I just finished a deposition today. It was on a foster care, sex abuse case and the defense lawyer was being quite polite and everything like that. He's being completely reasonable. And I said objection, objection. And the client said well, what am I supposed to do? I said well, I said I object because there's something about the question that I didn't like or I was just irritated by it. What did you do? And you know I was irritated because I thought it was a dumb question, but there's no judge here to rule on it, so you just answer the question and the defense lawyer and he says, oh, so I shouldn't answer this question. I said, yeah, this is one of those examples that he was just asking you a really irritating question and the defense lawyer is just looking at me and he's pretending to laugh like ah, but you know, I pretty much was irritating the defense lawyer by saying that, because, or another deposition last week where I told the defense lawyer that her questions were interminable what During the break, my god, over an hour asking about, you know, background of an expert, yeah, um.
Karen Koehler:But I'm going to go way back and and tell you a story that kind of illustrates this. And there's so many, there's so many examples I can't even choose a couple. Yeah, yeah. So this is a case of the guy that he was driving in his little two-seater car and he was just going. He was going to go making a left turn with a left arrow, green arrow at an intersection and a box truck coming the other way went straight through the red light.
Mo Hamoudi:Yeah.
Karen Koehler:And his car went underneath and he was almost decapitated, but not quite. He ended up not being decapitated, but horribly injured.
Mo Hamoudi:Yeah.
Karen Koehler:And it turned out that the guy driving the box truck, when we later sued him and took his deposition, part of his process of getting ready to drive every morning involved getting up and smoking a bowl of marijuana before he went out. So the question was that's never going to come in because the defense is going to stipulate that they're liable, which is what, exactly what they did? Right before trial, they said okay, we admit liability, so you can't mention the marijuana. However, being the devious attorney that I am, marijuana, however, being the devious attorney that I am, um, he had told his therapist that when he's driving yeah, our client he would be very nervous because he was worried that other people would be high from smoking marijuana. So that was in his therapy notes. He was very nervous that people were high or were drunk, yeah, that he was going to be hurt again, so he was very worried about that.
Karen Koehler:So, judge gonzalez, who at that time was a superior court judge, steve gonzalez agreed with us that because he specifically had a ptsd trigger, that somebody was high, that it was okay to talk about this driver being high okay so the defense lawyer was furious about that the defense lawyer hated me.
Karen Koehler:So again, devious lawyer that I am I don't want to say devious, let's say wickedly shrewd I thought to myself okay, the defense lawyer knows that this is coming in, we just won this motion, his client was high and the jury's going to know about it. Yeah Right. So we start choosing the jury, voir dire happens and we get to opening statements. No, we're in the middle of voir dire. This is when it was in person. So everybody's there. We get almost to the end of voir dire and the defense lawyer says how many people are? This is before marijuana was legal. How many people are against people driving with marijuana? You're going to hear about this? And everybody raises their hand hand or half of them. So he's trying to neutralize this whole negative issue and I never talk about it. Then my opening statement comes and I never mention it. And then he does his opening statement and mentions it, obviously, and we're about midway through the trial and he starts losing it because it becomes clear to him that I'm not going to mention it at all. I don't talk about it at all because I don't want to get some kind of like. I don't want there to be an appeal, I don't want to create an appellate issue by allowing that in, even though the judge said it could come in, so this defense attorney is the one that introduces it.
Karen Koehler:I was talking about it over and over again. I don't see anything. And he was arguing to the judge. He was super, super angry, he was like shaking with rage and he said they, you know, he was complaining about it. And he said they had faked me. And I I started laughing like right in court because because we did, yeah, um, just enraged. He was so mad, he knew, he just, he knew after so much period of time that, oh, he finally was putting it together, yeah, that we weren't doing it. And he was so upset, he, just he lost it in front of the court and I will never forget that moment. It was a highlight of that trial when he, just he lost it in front of the court and I will never forget that moment. It was a highlight of that trial when he, when he accused us of fake hic wait, fake head, faking him yeah which is a basketball term yeah, a head fake a head fake, a head fake.
Karen Koehler:Yeah, they head faked me, they head faked you okay, okay. That's an example.
Mo Hamoudi:Yeah, I mean I got a lot of these. Tell me some. I mean, one thing I know is that I know from lawyers that I terrify them sometimes. But a good example is a lawyer who, after I represented somebody at a hearing and I told them I represent them for all purposes, not just a particular hearing. I was at that particular issue, that particular case, and I just sort of put that on the record because I knew the lawyer on the other side had a plan to go and approach my client after my case was done and try to do some investigation. So lo and behold, that lawyer sent somebody to go talk to my client. And I knew and I told my client. I told him exactly what to do. I said when they show up, I want you to say isn't Mo supposed to be here and make sure that a record is made of it? And he did that. Then I waited and the reason this lawyer sent that person to talk to my client became another case and that case started. I immediately filed papers for a hearing and I subpoenaed the lawyer. And the lawyer was a high-level lawyer at his office and rattled him. I mean, so that's an example of getting under somebody's skin. I set that chain of events into motion because I knew his shortcomings. I knew he couldn't help himself. That was incredible because all of the lawyers from that lawyer's office showed up to the courtroom and the judge was like, well, he's going to have to likely testify. It was a very uncomfortable moment for the lawyer. That's one of the examples.
Mo Hamoudi:The other one is that I've had a couple of lawyers quit their jobs because I forced them to have to confront who they really are and their hypocrisy. And I do it through the work and it puts an incredible amount of pressure on them. For example, if a lawyer comes into a case and starts to take some moral position about their case or their client, I will take that morality and I will flip it upside down and beat them over the head with it until they give up. And I will do that nonstop, 24 hours a day, into the weekends. And so in the case in particular, it had to do with a senior official lying, lying under oath, and this is somebody who's celebrated and everybody loved this person and I knew they lied.
Mo Hamoudi:From the moment I saw the case, I knew this person was a liar and I dug deep and I kept forcing them to come into court and defend this person's credibility. This lawyer came into court over and over again, in front of judge after judge, and I knew from the beginning that this person was a liar. When I put it out clear as day on the record that this person was a liar, the other lawyer morally collapsed, couldn't do it anymore. Quit, that's what I will do. Like, if you get on my bad side, I will come for you. Like I will come for you, and I will do it within the confines of the rules, within the boundaries.
Karen Koehler:Mo is way meaner. Just let the record reflect. Mo is way meaner than me. I am just like playing with it. I find great joy in irritating defense lawyers, but Mo is like seriously going to be out to get you. Just so you know so that there's no doubt here. Like I'm the good one here, he's not the good one that you want to mess around with.
Mo Hamoudi:I mean, to me it's like. It's like just like people who are like hypocrites. I can't stand hypocrites. I don't think that'd drive you nuts, but, like most defense lawyers are hypocrites.
Karen Koehler:So I started bringing emotion in all my trials. I have many emotions. That drives defense lawyers crazy.
Karen Koehler:One of them is to prohibit them from apologizing, because what they'll do is they come out and they say we are so sorry. They tell the jury we are so sorry that this happened, but it's not our fault, but we're so sorry that it happened, but it's not our fault. And I'm like it doesn't matter what the defense lawyer feels. We don't care what the defense lawyer feels. That's irrelevant and I always win that motion. They cannot say that they're sorry to the client, that they feel sorry for the client. They can't say that. That's.
Mo Hamoudi:That's pretty much always allowed how does that get under their skin? You think, you think it's don't, because that's what they want to do.
Karen Koehler:They want to do it and you want to like not let them do it.
Mo Hamoudi:Okay, there's another way you get other people. First of all, this is like I call b. Where's my little? Like I should bring that bell. You are cruel. Oh, he got some. Oh, you did. Oh, you did get a little toy. Yeah, okay, you are cruel. First of all, uh-uh, I call BS. You are not like, let's move the record straight. I have seen you. You are vicious.
Karen Koehler:I am vicious, okay, so I mean you, you are vicious, I am vicious, okay, so I mean, but I take joy in it. You do, I don't do it for I don't do it. You like you were getting intense there. I do it because it's amusing.
Mo Hamoudi:Well, no, I'm amused by it, but at the same time it's got to be intense, like we have a lawyer right now that we're.
Karen Koehler:We have a couple lawyers right now that we've been messing with. I mean, I don't know I guess I will say this.
Mo Hamoudi:It may come across as messing, but, like Karen, they're being bad lawyers. And, by the way, I hope the mediator doesn't think like I saw. The mediator sent an email saying Kristen's the belt of bee's knees. I was like I bet you I'm not, I bet you the message was. That message was sent because it was like I am not. That, yeah, that's so good. I don't know, mike, do you think it's fair for lawyers, um, to be subjected to what karen and I described?
Mike Todd:yes, because they pull the same dirty tricks they do. I mean, I, the one that I always remember was when you were going against John Henry Brown Wow, who is a very, very famous defense attorney, like almost only a defense attorney, yeah, and I mean he was doing stuff and then eventually, you know, know, you guys won that case and, if I'm correct, he, you know, didn't really feel good about the way that he had performed.
Karen Koehler:No, well, he, you know that's the case. I've talked about this before where he was super insulting to me and I called up and and bremner, one of his prior wives, and said this isn't funny, is he being funny? She said, no, he's just being mean. And so then I figured like, oh, and do you think that I caved? No, no, he was insulting me.
Mike Todd:No, you drove him crazy.
Karen Koehler:He was insulting me. I drove him crazy. First of all, he accused me of age discrimination, because I hit him at vanity, which he is super, super vain, and so I started hitting him at. Did you call him an old guy? I didn't call him in so many words, it was all wordsmithed, but yes. I did See and.
Mo Hamoudi:I'm the mean one.
Karen Koehler:I just hit him right where it hurt like as much as I could, and so he didn't say other stuff to me and I just like hit him right back.
Mo Hamoudi:I hit him right back as much as I could, and so he'd say other stuff to me and I'd just like hit him right back. Like hit him right back. John's a big boy. He can take it, apparently not, he really couldn't and he caved.
Karen Koehler:Well, no, but when you get to the trial, he hated me so much. If you talk to Farhad, who was there, what he would say is that the guy was trying to case against me. The guy was trying to case against me. He was so focused on me and beating me that he wasn't able to see clearly.
Mo Hamoudi:Yeah, yeah, okay. That's to me is like a combination of combination of like a defense I am part of that. It's just outright discrimination, like the one thing with my experiences is that, no matter what I did to these lawyers, they still respect me Like they still are, like you were just doing your job and you did it better than me and you like caused me this. I think a lot of never for me.
Karen Koehler:Almost that never happens with me.
Mo Hamoudi:Right, and so, like I think that, that's like I'm irritating.
Mike Todd:Right, yeah, and that's the way it should be, mo, but it isn't a lot of the time.
Mo Hamoudi:Yeah, but that's not cool because, like you beat him at his own game Oops, you beat him at his own game, right.
Karen Koehler:That's Dan. What does Dan want?
Mo Hamoudi:You beat him at his own game. And then, when you beat him at his own game, you know he's like he's a sore loser. Like that's not cool, Like I don't. That just that's telling they're telling themselves. I want to know is is that have you ever gotten so far underneath a defense lawyer's skin that it's made them want to like give up the case and just be like let's just settle, like I just don't want to deal with you anymore. What do you want? Like does that ever?
Karen Koehler:happen not, it's not, it shouldn't ever happen in in our fields. No, okay, no, and plus, you know we're not on. We're not on a level playing field and especially the longer my career's gone on, I rarely have a case against one defensor. There's always multiple um, there's so many of them and the budgets involved in the defense are very large they're unlimited, so if one of them doesn't get along with me, they'll just replace them with someone else yeah, yeah, but yeah I do think that, like this, there is like a I'm seeing a differing, there's like a, there's like types of lawyers, but then there's like a generational gap.
Karen Koehler:Yeah.
Mo Hamoudi:Like I see, like there's some lawyers I observe that cannot take, can I? It's like they cannot take it. They cannot take the heat. The heat is too much Like not even you know. Do you know what I'm talking about?
Karen Koehler:I do Maybe I'm not articulating my thing with young I shouldn't say young with newer lawyers. I started noticing it maybe 10 years ago. I would often have more problems with newer lawyers because they were trying to prove something Like oh, I'm going to prove, you know, like I'm this big bad lawyer and they're going to prove that they can take me on, so. But that doesn't work at all, because I do, you know, I do the snap snap I am, I am, I am vicious, I am yeah but in a sweet way it is.
Mo Hamoudi:You are very sweet.
Karen Koehler:That's why you've seen my letter writing yes, it's very sweet.
Mo Hamoudi:Yes, I will my, my letter.
Karen Koehler:Right? This is how it typically goes. Dear defense lawyer, you are absolutely out of your mind. I don't know what you're saying. You are so dumb. I really hope you're having a great day, yes, and can't wait to see you again. Love Karen.
Mo Hamoudi:I mean, that's kind of the formula is that, ever since I've been working here for a little over a year, lawyers come up to me and they go like what's it like working with Karen Gohl or the Velvet Hammer? And there's this perception out there. How difficult I am, by the way. I sit back and I just go like, yeah, and they don't know, but these are younger in the field, not age-wise, but newer lawyers. And, like you know, thing is, is that, like your actions in the public arena project an image?
Karen Koehler:Yeah.
Mo Hamoudi:And I think that, like a lot of it is somewhat driven by that. And then you then come into a case and then, like this past weekend, she sent this, this I read this letter I'm like I spit out the water I was drinking because it was like this, like this eight page letter to these defense lawyers, literally putting in definitions and dictionaries.
Karen Koehler:they haven't responded yet.
Mo Hamoudi:No and I was. I was just reading it, I go what is this? And it was just like you were rattling them and you were. You know, it was just. You did not use the words, but you said you're dumb, you're idiotic. What did you write in your letter? It makes no sense and you kind of just.
Karen Koehler:I just told you, that's my formula.
Mo Hamoudi:Yeah.
Karen Koehler:And have a nice day and hope you're having a great weekend. But the you know I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I am disrespectful because you're working on the wrong side and the whole point of the defense is to get my client's case thrown out Like they're the enemy. To get my client's case thrown out Like they're the enemy. So I remember a long time ago where, really from my first job as a defense lawyer, that the thought was well, you must be very civil, you must be very cordial, and that's very, very important. And the judges always say I hate fighting, I want people to be very civil. And then you go talk to your client and they're like why are you being so nice to them? Why are they being so nice to you? What's going on here? I don't understand. Aren't we in a war? And so there's this perception of our state bar you can go Google it that civility is an essential factor of practicing law and I wrote editorials against that. Like there's a civility award. They call it a professionalism award. It's a civility award.
Karen Koehler:I will never win that award. I will never win the Plaintiff Trial Lawyer of the Year Award from the defense bar because they're not my friends. I don't need to make friends. They're trying to destroy the client's case and I'm not a ruthless, mean attorney Like I can name off some that are really ruthless, mean attorneys. I have some defense lawyers I get along with really well while we, while we, while we do battle. But I and my the title of my, of my article on civility was civility, but with teeth. You know, I'm all fine with being civil, but let's not muck around here. They're trying to get my case dismissed on technicality or any way that they can this interperson. They want to have nothing. They don't want their clients to be accountable and I'm supposed to be civil back to them. Ok, I will be civil, quote quotes, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to bite.
Mo Hamoudi:I think that you can't. To me this concept of civility there's a couple of. I understand what it is. It's like the idea that you come into courtrooms and here's where we resolve our differences in a professional way. I get that Fine, but there's also a professional responsibility to be zealous and pursue justice and those things, unfortunately, are uncomfortable and require you to force people to face some uncomfortable truths, and people don't like that and it gets very nervous.
Mo Hamoudi:What I don't like about this concept of civility is what you've just described is going into a room and being like you guys look like you're all in suits and you're all friends, you know and like. What does that mean for the people who are outside of this room, who don't have the suits on? Which is like people who are like poor people who don't have access to courtrooms. What that looks like is that the system is fixed. What I never liked when I walked into a criminal courtroom is where I couldn't tell who the public defender was and who the prosecutor was, because they're all sitting there kind of commiserating, and then you had people in custody in their jail garb sitting there waiting for their lawyer to come talk to them. That disgusted me, thank you, so I'm totally with you. Yeah, karen, I agree with you on that there was.
Karen Koehler:There's here. Here's a trial. This, this happened in trial many times, so we tend to be technology technologically advanced because mike comes and sets us up with all this machinery and we have all this stuff.
Mo Hamoudi:You do save us.
Karen Koehler:The defense would either not use anything or they would bring in the $20,000 a day model of the professional person with the person there. But often they wouldn't, and so we would put our stuff on. And then the defense would say, hey, whatever Fahad or Kristen or whoever you know, whoever's running it, can you put up exhibit number 405? And I would look at them and say I would let it be done once. And then I would say, take all of our stuff down now, done once. And then I would say, take all of our stuff down now. And then they would because because I didn't want to get in trouble from the judge or by the jury saying, well, she's not being very nice when you're not putting up her stuff.
Karen Koehler:But it's like we're not your, we're not your staff, we're not your secretary, do it yourself. Now, that's what I say, that what I would say outside the presence of a judge. But I would never be that disrespectful in the presence of a judge. But I will do whatever I can to make sure that our tech is done. And when they say, hey, can you put up exhibit number 23,? I'm going to be like I'm not going to even be listening to them.
Mo Hamoudi:Because they expect you to do it, because that's like.
Karen Koehler:That would be the civil way. Yeah Like do it yourself.
Mo Hamoudi:Yeah, like do it yourself. No, I've have I. I don't know if I've ever seen you do that in life court. I think I have seen you do that in life court Actually.
Karen Koehler:I will never help them. I will never help them because our clients are sitting there watching this.
Mo Hamoudi:Yeah, yeah.
Karen Koehler:And and I know people are like well, you should be civil and the judges will say it. Like you should be civil, I'm civil, I'm civil. I'm not hitting anybody, I'm not kicking anybody, I'm not spitting, I'm not saying bad things, but you're telling me I need to be buddies with someone that's trying to destroy this client's case. Who said I had to? Yeah, no, sorry but everybody does it, I, but everybody does it.
Mo Hamoudi:I know A lot of people do it. I'm not into that.
Karen Koehler:Everybody.
Mo Hamoudi:Most everybody, most everybody does it and you know, it's like I don't know what it is.
Karen Koehler:It's like the need to feel like the bar says we're supposed to do it, and people just blindly listen to it and think, well, yeah, we should all be civil. Really, why should we be? Because the thing that you said that resonates the most is the person who's seeking justice is coming into court and they're just watching everybody laughing and having fun together and and it's so it does it just feels rigged like and unsafe.
Mo Hamoudi:I'm in an unsafe situation here, safe space. Nobody has been able to articulate to me in a way in which I can say civility and zeal. I mean, go read the ABA opening statements, the RPCs. They don't talk about civility, they talk about pursuing justice, they talk about zeal. They don't talk about this. Everybody get along. It doesn't say that. So this is a made-up thing that, unfortunately, systems of lawyers have created in order to make themselves comfortable and control the legal market, because it's their friends and they have access to it and they let people in and they let people out and it makes it look like it's a happy little party. I don't want anything to do with that, I just don't and I've done just fine like doing that. Look, I'm part of organizations. I am all for giving back and participating. I'm not the kind of guy that's going to throw bombs and then just sort of sit back and not do anything. I'll go and get involved, but this is what I am. This is my personality.
Karen Koehler:I remember my old partner Pat. He told me one of my favorite stories, which is he was in deposition.
Mo Hamoudi:Yeah.
Karen Koehler:And it was pretty heated and there was other people obviously in the deposition and at one point another one of the plaintiff lawyers and one of the defense lawyers in the middle of the deposition were on the floor fighting.
Mo Hamoudi:Okay, that's a little ridiculous. I never, ever, got to see that I'm not talking about fisticuffs. I would like to see that.
Karen Koehler:I would like to see that.
Mo Hamoudi:Yeah.
Karen Koehler:I would too. I mean, that's just pretty funny. I mean that's just like.
Mike Todd:That needs to be in a YouTube video somewhere.
Karen Koehler:We don't need TV in the practice of law. There's so much amusing stuff.
Mo Hamoudi:That's nuts, that's nuts, it's very, but you had a lawyer chase you around the table.
Karen Koehler:That was not a lawyer, that was another client.
Mo Hamoudi:Another client, okay Right.
Karen Koehler:The thing is, the thing is for me, because I love the law so much and I love how entertaining it is to me. I am looking for those moments, and so I am rightly accused of being a provocateur. I definitely am a provocateur. I want to like stab it and see what happens all the time.
Mike Todd:And I think that's what makes you guys good lawyers.
Karen Koehler:Yeah.
Mike Todd:Is you're willing to do that and you're willing to play the game in such a way, because you know, talking about technology stuff, it goes the opposite way too. It goes the opposite way too Most of the big corporations that we've gone against. When you go to the actual trial, they'll come in, like you said, with a company that they've paid a bunch of money to, and if you ask to use that stuff then they tell you you've got to split the cost with them, which they are doing to our clients.
Mike Todd:They know if you win, that money is going to get paid out of what we won that's a good point, mike.
Mo Hamoudi:Yeah, that's actually a really good point. It is a good point we've never.
Karen Koehler:We've never really trusted them either because, like even I think in the depths, like the switch switch wasn't working, you know they no, yeah, they had they messed.
Mike Todd:uh, you know that company that was doing it. They made mistakes, that whole trial, yeah, but you use that to your advantage too.
Mo Hamoudi:Yeah.
Mike Todd:Yeah, yeah.
Mo Hamoudi:Yeah, you know what? Here's the thing. I think a lot of lawyers think like we do, but they don't talk about it openly and they pretend to be civil. I just think that that's true. These are all just unmanifested thoughts.
Karen Koehler:I don't think so. I think that lawyers nowadays, with our bar associations, are taught that civility is a civility is the goal. Civility is a something that everybody should try to achieve.
Mo Hamoudi:Is strip matter civil.
Karen Koehler:Strip matter is fairly civil, but he will, he will. If you make strip matter mad, he will be extremely angry.
Mo Hamoudi:Okay, okay. What about Kessler?
Karen Koehler:He got the. He got the dreaded plaintiffyer of the Year award from the defense bar. So I'm not going to say anything about Kessler.
Mo Hamoudi:Okay, how about the late—?
Karen Koehler:Who would strive to get the Plaintiff of the Year award from the defense bar? Who are they awarding awards to Not? That he doesn't deserve it. He might have even been the first one. He's such a likable guy.
Mo Hamoudi:Yeah, yeah.
Karen Koehler:But I want to be the evil one. Okay, one, he's, he's such a likable guy, yeah, yeah, but like I want to be the evil one, okay, what about some people that are more evil than me, david?
Mo Hamoudi:benninger, oh okay, exhibit a. Uh, what about other women? Yeah, other women who you respect, lawyers that, you would say, are what you just described like um, they would mainly be defense defense lawyers. Yeah, yeah.
Karen Koehler:Which maybe it's changed, but I am not. Yeah, I am an outlier in some ways because I have these, you know, quote unquote aggressive male traits in this. You know, quote unquote.
Mo Hamoudi:Yeah.
Karen Koehler:An aggressive male package.
Mo Hamoudi:Yeah, which goes back to my point last week.
Karen Koehler:It's confusing for people.
Mo Hamoudi:It's confusing for people and, like you know it's, it's hard. Not hard for me? Well, for me it is. I'm the minority in the office. There's not enough male energy.
Karen Koehler:Oh no, not the male energy, again Male energy.
Mo Hamoudi:Male energy.
Mike Todd:Male energy. Male energy. Sorry, you got to take that phrase out of your vocabulary.
Karen Koehler:I mean, yeah, you still dated Mike.
Mo Hamoudi:But you see what I'm doing is. I am provoking you.
Karen Koehler:No, you're really not. Is that my? What Love by love. George Benson came up, George.
Mo Hamoudi:Benson.
Karen Koehler:Because George heard me, he heard you, he like started playing with my phone no, but that's, that's provocateur, that's uh yeah it's not even provocative. I just wanted to slap it out of you, but I just was trying to withhold it okay, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Mo Hamoudi:Uh, it's like the Rodney Dangerfield. I can't get any respect at all.
Karen Koehler:However, you know going back and looping all the way back to our subject.
Mo Hamoudi:Yes.
Karen Koehler:I love what we do.
Mo Hamoudi:Yes.
Karen Koehler:I do.
Mo Hamoudi:Yes.
Karen Koehler:And one of the fun things is getting under the opponent's skin.
Mo Hamoudi:The opponent's skin.
Karen Koehler:It's very nice and I'll give you another example, like and I do it on just about everything lawyer wrote this morning and said well, since we've been unable to get a date for mediation, we're going to bring a motion today to continue the trial because this is the last day that we can do it. And I sent an email back and said well, you may not, you might not want to do that, because you guys are the reasons why we have been able to get a date, and you might not want to do that because you guys are the reasons why we have been able to get a date and you may not want to look bad in front of the court. And, by the way, we just resolved the case set for May, so we'll do mediation any day of the week. We're available any day of the week in May for you to do mediation, so go ahead and bring that motion.
Mo Hamoudi:They did.
Karen Koehler:And we're going to make them look stupid.
Mo Hamoudi:Let's make them look stupid, all right.
