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The Velvet Hammer™ Podcast
Trial lawyers can be real people, too—and this podcast proves it. The Velvet Hammer™ is back, and this time, Karen Koehler isn’t going it alone. Known for her fearless advocacy, bold storytelling, and, yes, even the occasional backwards dress moment, Karen is teaming up with Mo Hamoudi, a lawyer, poet, and storyteller whose empathy and resilience add a whole new dynamic to the show.
Together, they’re pulling back the curtain on trial law, diving into bold topics, heartfelt stories, and the messy, hilarious moments that make trial lawyers human. This is an unscripted, raw, and fun take on life inside—and outside—the courtroom.
The Velvet Hammer™ Podcast
Post-Settlement Syndrome
Episode 22: Post-Settlement Syndrome
In this episode of The Velvet Hammer™, Karen and Mo talk about the emotional crash that hits when you’re “all dressed up and nowhere to party.” Karen calls it post-settlement syndrome. The adrenaline is still pumping, but there’s no fight. They unpack what it feels like when justice is close enough to taste, but the public reckoning never happens. Mike compares it to being robbed of your moment in the ring.
The frustration is real. They reveal how even a great result for a client can feel hollow when it stops short of holding the other side publicly accountable.
They revisit the landmark $10 million Black Lives Matter settlement and explore why some lawyers would rather go to trial than accept the win. For Karen and Mo, the trial isn’t just about the outcome. It’s about the strategy, the confrontation, and the moral clarity that only comes in open court. When that energy has nowhere to go, it often manifests as spicy interactions between colleagues.
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Hosted by Karen Koehler and Mo Hamoudi, trial lawyers at Stritmatter Law, a nationally recognized plaintiff personal injury and civil rights law firm based in Washington State.
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I mean, it's a it's I. I just have this sensation where I'm not coming down, I am up, my adrenaline is up. I don't maybe I'm not manifesting it, but I'm just jacked up. I can't sleep. I was ready to go to trial. We were going to go to Tacoma for like six weeks, I think, and it was going to be.
Karen Koehler :Epic.
Mo Hamoudi :Doozy, and then now we are not going to trial.
Karen Koehler :All dressed up and nowhere to party.
Mo Hamoudi :Yes, all dressed up and nowhere to party. Yes, all dressed up and nowhere to go. It's hard, I can't. I can't. I mean it's now bleeding into other cases.
Karen Koehler :Mo be honest. How lovely have I been to be around the last week.
Mo Hamoudi :You have been. You have been spicy. I mean, mike, she's been so spicy. She's been short interrupting, not letting me finish. It's like as if I did something. You're the one who resolved the case, I didn't. You stopped this.
Karen Koehler :Loris beat me in backgammon. I've had a full-on tantrum. I was on the floor kicking my feet like I was three years old. I just let it rip. I'm so aggressive right now.
Mike Todd:So you think that it's all the build-up to the case that you were gearing up to fight and then you didn't get to fight. So now you're. It's common. Now it's weaning off at the last second.
Karen Koehler :It's post-settlement malaise, Except for it's not really malaise, yeah no malaise would be not doing anything.
Mike Todd:What you guys are doing is picking fights with each other because you wanted to fight somebody else and now you can't.
Karen Koehler :I mean several times we've had a meeting.
Mike Todd:And you can't really talk about it either.
Karen Koehler :No, we can't talk about it.
Mo Hamoudi :It's called post-settlement syndrome.
Karen Koehler :It about it either. No, we can't talk about it, it's called post-settlement syndrome.
Mo Hamoudi :I think that there is a DSM out there that has classified this as a condition. It's called post-settlement syndrome.
Mike Todd:I'm not going to say I know whether or not that's true. However, in all fairness.
Karen Koehler :Most attorneys want to settle the cases that they're working on, and they're always thrilled when they're done and when they settle them.
Mike Todd:Well, they settle them. We've talked about that before. This firm and firms like us are different because we want to go to trial. It would have been a good thing if you prevailed at this for more than just us as the people who were going to be going to do the fight. This is like a heavyweight boxing match, but at the last second, the the, the ref comes in and says, okay, it's over, it's over. It's exactly what happened.
Karen Koehler :All right, Literally that's exactly what happened. Don't, don't, not talk. We got to talk about it.
Mike Todd:Yeah, we were a year and a half of wait, he's got to go back on oh it's, oh, you never let you go, we just kept talking oh excellent good but we we might have to edit some out because I'm concerned that they could hear you talking oh yeah, sorry, this is my water guy well, that's not something that we really need to worry about.
Karen Koehler :That's pretty funny I mean okay, let's rewind, let's structure this.
Mo Hamoudi :Okay, let's structure this.
Karen Koehler :So you settle a case, your client's happy.
Mo Hamoudi :I'm not.
Karen Koehler :You've done a very good job, but the case is over, and it's a case that you've been working on like high intensity, for in this case it was pretty fast only two years.
Mo Hamoudi :Yeah.
Karen Koehler :Wrongful death case. There is just. Where is that energy going to go? It's got to go somewhere, and where it's coming out is my attitude is bad.
Mo Hamoudi :I mean, her attitude is terrible right now.
Karen Koehler :It's like if a defense lawyer looks at me the wrong way, I will just go all over. And it's not even a defense lawyer. It's even my friends.
Mo Hamoudi :She's being very spicy.
Karen Koehler :That's the thing.
Mo Hamoudi :She's just being spicy.
Karen Koehler :I'm aggressive.
Mike Todd:You guys need to have a field trip to where you go to a gym and just work out on the heavy bag for a while or something like that.
Mo Hamoudi :I mean honestly. I've been going to the gym every day and I'm trying to get it out of me.
Karen Koehler :It's pretty much almost gone for me.
Mo Hamoudi :Yeah, no, it's not. It's not, you were like it this morning.
Karen Koehler :No what.
Mo Hamoudi :Yeah, you were like it right in my office right now. You were like it. You're very spicy and it's just the adrenaline. It's that you know, when you teach your body to go into battle mode and you're prepped and you've done everything right and you're getting ready to walk in. And you've done everything right and you're getting ready to walk in, and we were getting ready to walk in and kick the ever-loving life out of the other side, and then somebody says they submit. And then you go, what they go, they submit. That's basically how I read this. I don't view settlement as like oh, we got together and we—they submitted, they submitted. They knew what they were walking into and they submitted. That's why you want to fight. You don't want the submission, because the whole time they've been signaling that they want to fight.
Karen Koehler :The last time that this happened where I was again, was I conflicted. I wasn't conflicted because ultimately and I can talk about this settlement it was when we settled the Black Lives Matter case for $10 million, which was about $8 million more than I thought that they would ever pay I was 100% convinced we were going to go to trial on that case. That's the only reason I ever took it.
Mo Hamoudi :Yeah.
Karen Koehler :The only reason I took that case pro bono initially was to try it because I wanted the public to know. I wanted them to know exactly what happened and the only way you could get a good hearing of that was to have the trial. And the clients wanted to have a trial. That's why they signed up, because I said don't come into this case unless you want to go to trial. We want to try this case. It is important, it is part of history. We need to do it.
Karen Koehler :And that case was four years in the making and when it came time to settle and they decided to keep raising and raising, and raising until it was at a point where I couldn't say, like we're going to beat this amount more than 50% of the time that's normally kind of my, you know. Can we beat this more than 50% of the time? The answer was no. I don't know. I don't know. I can't tell you that we will, because the political climate has changed. People turn their backs on the protesters. I mean now we're looking at the DOJ just reversing its investigation of the police departments on George Floyd and Breonna Taylor. I mean the world has changed in four years.
Mike Todd:People are being arrested for protesting period. Yes, People are being stopped.
Karen Koehler :Free period.
Mike Todd:Yes, people are being stopped, like free speech has been suspended essentially so.
Karen Koehler :So we were so. So we we get to the point and we are ramped up. We have huge team. Everybody wants to try the case. We go in there thinking they're going to offer us two million dollars and that we'll have a hard decision to make. And that's not what they offered.
Mo Hamoudi :And they offered more. Okay. So I think this is the part we can kind of talk about is because, okay, the art of the settlement and how it drives you to stop a case and talk about Black Lives Matter, like what is it that stops the case? Like why? So? Why 10 million? What's?
Karen Koehler :it seems arbitrary well, we talked about that before yeah it was that the only way that we would agree to settle the case was if it was a statement of liability okay and the, and we believed and we agreed that 10 was a statement and in that has turned out to be true. There's a difference.
Mo Hamoudi :I've told you before between 9, 9, 9, 9, 9.
Karen Koehler :9, 9 and 10. So 10 was that line in the sand number and they decided to pay it. And I was in the middle of another trial when this was going on and I don't know if I've ever talked about this other than to the press they put in their settlement agreement that we couldn't contact the media until yeah, it was like eight days or.
Karen Koehler :It was Well, it was like the next week until this hour and it wasn't very long and I agreed to it and I thought Ann Davison wants to get. She wants to because they've watched how I work and they're going to like trump us. So we had already even though I didn't think the case was ever going to settle had already been working on the press release which we went. Even though I was in trial in another case, I took the lead on drafting press release, which we went. Even though I was in trial in another case, I took the lead on drafting that thing, illustrating it, creating the whole package. So it was ready to go and then arranged with Cassie's help but, trust me, I was a, you know, mastermind of this for all the clients that could to come down to the courthouse in Lumhal and for everyone to come down. And so I literally finished closing argument, walked out the door, down the hall and that's where the press conference was.
Karen Koehler :I remember that you were in that pink jacket and it had to be done because, guess what, like an hour before that happened, the city had released a release saying we did this, but it wasn't our, and you know we just did it because you know this was a, this was an economics decision and and I called bs on it- no, you did more than that well I call that you.
Mo Hamoudi :That was your punk speech I did. I called them punks that was I called the famous punk speech. Yeah, and you were in pink, I was crying at halftime.
Karen Koehler :I was so angry I was, I was you were what are the? What is the word for? You know, hangry is when you're hungry and angry. What is it when you're so angry that you just lose it? I mean intentionally, I allow myself to just cry angry. I was so furious, she was crying.
Mo Hamoudi :You were cranky.
Karen Koehler :Well, it was cause. You know, the protesters were there and they were so lovely and important. They were such important clients, their mission was so worthy. They're so eloquent. They were there and they were so lovely and important. They were such important clients, their mission was so worthy. They're so eloquent. They were there to protect the first amendment. The the ones, all of them, but you know, especially the ones that were there they could so eloquently say what they were doing and why.
Karen Koehler :And it was never about the money, it was about making a statement and doing this on behalf of. And here we are like, what good did it do? I don't know. History says it did something good and it did something good for them and it gave a mark, a marker of this is what the world should be like. And now we've, now we're going backwards. But that is an example of again. I mean I didn't have time to be upset about settling the case because I was in trial on another case and I had to deal with this stupid press release battle that the city foisted on us because they wanted to get out and give their statement. But afterwards, yes, I mean, I still feel the pain. You know, you talk about, you feel the pain on losing Um, you feel the pain on not getting enough, but I do feel the pain that I never got to try many cases. I feel the pain of it Not often, but maybe that's why I react so poorly after this last one is because it's every time it happens. It's it's a cumulative effect.
Mo Hamoudi :It's the trauma of having settled cases that I wanted to try so bad because justice was on our side the pain that I feel, and the pain that I feel is the pain of not having the opportunity to confront the other side with what they did wrong and hold them accountable in a way in which I know this is a little bit aggressive but humiliates them.
Karen Koehler :A public humiliation.
Mo Hamoudi :That's my—I feel the same way. Okay, all right.
Karen Koehler :I feel the same way. I wanted them to be exposed.
Mo Hamoudi :And to have those witnesses on the stand and slowly walk them through what they did and then ask them—.
Karen Koehler :Inexcusable.
Mo Hamoudi :Ask them a question what accountability, if any, do you take for what happened?
Karen Koehler :I'll never forget the one officer that just shot the blast ball that hit one of our clients directly in the chest, caused her heart to stop beating, and you know you're supposed to only shoot those things, not to strike a person. And not only did he shoot it, but he just kept going on his merry way. He didn't wait to see where it landed. I mean it hit her right smack. I mean the videos were just horrible. He violated all kinds of procedures and most of them are still working for the police department.
Mo Hamoudi :I mean, the one I think of is the inquest hearing that I just did in January and the officer who was shot and killed I was CF Aletogo. He was on the stand and I asked him a question and you know he had the gun out and the gun pointed to the—I would see his head and I said okay, so you have the gun, right, that's in your hand. You're intentionally holding the gun, aren't you? And I was like and then the gun jammed. He pulled the trigger multiple times. So I slowed it down and I was like so you were pulling the trigger and when you did it, you were intending to discharge a bullet into his head. And then I was like that wasn't an accident, right? And I was like walk me through, how slowly you did that? Did you press it like this? And I walked him through each one and then I asked him I was like what accountability do you take for taking his life? And they objected Wouldn't let him answer the question.
Karen Koehler :Because it was an inquest.
Mo Hamoudi :Yeah, but you know I was like, do you take any moral responsibility for what happened? And then they objected and she wouldn't let him answer. But the jury at the end wanted that answered.
Karen Koehler :Yeah.
Mo Hamoudi :I think that, like that's the part of the trial I miss is that you know and this is Karen because I was a federal public defender.
Karen Koehler :There's many other selfish. Okay, there's the high road that we've talked about, right? No, I got to interrupt us because, we are so preachy in high road. Now I mean, let's be real.
Mo Hamoudi :Okay, what's the real?
Karen Koehler :Oh, come on.
Mo Hamoudi :What are you talking about?
Karen Koehler :It's the high point of what we do.
Mo Hamoudi :It is the high point. We can't play in our sandbox.
Karen Koehler :They didn't let us play in our sandbox. We wanted to throw sand and kick them in the face and do all kinds of bad things, and they deprived us of it, and so we are very funky right now. We wanted to do it, it was very selfish.
Mike Todd:You wanted to be able to I mean metaphorically you wanted to be able to hit them and you didn't get to. So now you're stomping around because you didn't get the release.
Mo Hamoudi :Okay, that's right. I mean, okay, we wanted to play tetherball and they took the tetherball away. Okay, that's exactly right.
Karen Koehler :We didn't want to play something as refined as tetherball.
Mike Todd:This was sock him, rock him, kick him. No, this was punch him in the face. That's exactly what you wanted to do. Okay, that's right, look at him.
Mo Hamoudi :He knows this is true. So wait, this is rascal Mo.
Karen Koehler :It is. I wanted to be a rascal and ruthless.
Mo Hamoudi :I could be ruthless, but I think getting into the sandbox is. I also wanted to go in and play with Karen in the sandbox. Yes, because we have a lot of fun, and the last trial we did was the Summer Taylor trial.
Karen Koehler :I think one of the highlights of the trial was picking her up and then driving to court and then driving her home and not knowing how to get to her house and never knew how to get back to my house. The whole time I didn't know how to get to your house. He drives like he's 95 years old.
Mo Hamoudi :And literally we're sitting there and she's like I'm like are we moving?
Karen Koehler :Are we standing still?
Mike Todd:Like can you please put your foot on the gas? Yeah, that's me riding in anyone's car at any given time.
Mo Hamoudi :Oh, my gosh and that picture I sent you, which is her going.
Karen Koehler :Which is cargo carrying which?
Mo Hamoudi :is her going like this she's going, but that was at the trial. I think part of what I missed was that you genuinely have a good time trying a case with somebody you enjoy trying a case with, and I think that's also was. Eh, that would have been a four-week party.
Karen Koehler :Yeah, we were getting ready to. I had said screw the Airbnb, we were going to just go do it at the hotel. We had the calendar with the witness names. I mean all this stuff is happening, the fun stuff that comes at the end of the case after you've gone through grueling months of depositions and discovery, and there's like I don't even know how many attorneys are on all the cases together there was probably about 15 attorneys against us and we're just, you know, go, go, go, go and then it's over so okay.
Mike Todd:So one of the challenges I'm having right now, it's like training for a marathon and it's canceled well, and it's also you've gone through all the depositions where they're little skirmishes yeah and you get I I I assume you get frustrated when something happens in one of those and you want to come back and go at them and then you don't get to.
Karen Koehler :I mean all the taunting that I do, because OK.
Mike Todd:Yeah, no, you do.
Karen Koehler :I taunt. So I mean there was Muhammad Ali and that kind of you know Rocky, the Rocky film. You know they're taunting, taunting. That is not limited to the sports playing field.
Mike Todd:No, it's not.
Karen Koehler :I am a very good taunter and I will do it sweetly.
Mo Hamoudi :I'll move like a butterfly, sting like a bee. You have no case?
Karen Koehler :What is your case? What is your damages case? Oh, thank you for that witness. I'm going to identify that witness as my own witness now. Thank you very much. Anything else, I mean, it's just a constant thing right, which is very fun, and a lot of good defensors like engaging with me in that and a lot of bad ones hate me for it. But there's so much mind game that goes on when you're doing something like this. It is a sporting event in many ways. It's physical, it's mental, it's all. It's mental, it's all encompassing. You're inside and you're out. Everything that you're doing is focused on that and then it's gone.
Mo Hamoudi :So one of the challenges is that now this sort of spiciness is bleeding into other cases.
Karen Koehler :How do you?
Mo Hamoudi :manage that. I don't care, you don't care? Well, what if the case doesn't really need that? And then this poor defense lawyer is like they all need it. Why are you Now? They know they all need it.
Karen Koehler :Okay, they all need it. I like that mantra. You know, even when I'm rude, no offense to people here at the office which I have been. For people to know that, yeah, I can be a little bit of a brat.
Mo Hamoudi :Yeah, yeah A lot.
Karen Koehler :It reminds people like she didn't get where she did just by being sweet and nice and trying to make everybody happy. Oh, she can throw a punch. Oops, she just did. I don't like it.
Mike Todd:Exactly Stop.
Mo Hamoudi :Just stop. It's true. It's true, yes, yes, you're incorrigible.
Karen Koehler :that is what you are. Have I been mean to you?
Mo Hamoudi :yeah, a little bit. I mean, I mean, I could take it, I'm a big boy, but like yeah, but like you know, because I want to do is get under your.
Karen Koehler :I want to get into everybody's skin. I just right now I'm so, I am, I am irascible, right now, okay, you know what she does.
Mo Hamoudi :I'm gonna give you an example. We have another case coming up in September in federal court. So the case is essentially an admitted liability case and it's just damages.
Karen Koehler :Medical negligence.
Mo Hamoudi :And then there's some liability on an issue negligent infliction of emotional distress. But that aside, she says, well, this trial's coming up and I don't really need anybody's help. It gets better, I don't really need anybody's help. But you know, I'm gonna let you do a witness. And I was like, oh, you are. I was like, well, thank you. And then she's like but you can't do damages, you don't know damages, you don't know how to ask for money.
Karen Koehler :This is like what she's doing to me Wait, wait. He also said can I do opening? I said no.
Mo Hamoudi :And it's just like, but like. So sometimes I'm hearing this and then I'm going like he's like you're wounding me.
Mo Hamoudi :I was like you are wounding me, you know. And, by the way, mike, she did this in the summer Taylor trial. We're sitting there. She's like I'm going to do Vaudeer, I'm going to do Vaudeer. We got to get these with. I was like, oh right, because I don't know how to do Vaudeer. What is that? What is that process? How do we do that? How do we select or take jurors off? And then she says, okay, you can do Vaudeer, you can do Vaudeer, you sure? I was like okay. And then I go in and I toss both of the jurors we need to toss in minutes. And then she comes over to me, she writes a little note. She goes okay, you can do Vaudeer. I mean, this is like a roller coaster and we go through it over and over and over again. But it's sweet, I like it. I'd say you're spicy, I don't take it personal, it's good.
Karen Koehler :It's got all my bad qualities. I change my mind constantly because I'm in trial. And number two is my delegation. I do delegate, but only after I trust someone and I don't trust you yet. On money Damages, on damages, I don't know how, yet on money Damages On damages.
Mo Hamoudi :I don't know how to ask for money, Mike.
Karen Koehler :Well, it's not just asking, it's being comfortable with it and understanding that it is not money money like money money. It is money in the context of compensation and honor and dignity and respect.
Mo Hamoudi :Yes, I understand that. I know, I understand that. You say you understand it. Do you sense the tension right now? Oh yeah, I mean talk about that, mike. Do you sense this tension?
Karen Koehler :And I don't apologize to anybody right now.
Mike Todd:No, but I mean, I don't know what to say about any of this. There's a tension, I'm so aggressive I would say that to the money thing, that that's difficult, it's hard to learn. I think I don't. I would have a lot of difficulty. I have. I've had trouble all throughout my life just getting my own worth correct, but worth for other people would be even harder, um, but I think that.
Mike Todd:I think that this is a natural process and I think, as long as you recognize that it's happening, and that Mo you recognize that it's happening as well to you, yes, I would say you have been covering up a lot better, because you just crank up the I'm so happy Mo as a mask.
Karen Koehler :He gets more.
Mike Todd:Because all week long you've been like hey how's?
Mo Hamoudi :it going Wait we see you in a video on him.
Mike Todd:You're like a little bouncing ball running around the office. That's a good point.
Karen Koehler :Because he has his own energy and then he's getting my energy thrown at him.
Mike Todd:Oh yeah, he's reacting to your energy. He's reacting to his own energy. And then he's you know, he's getting my energy thrown at him. Oh yeah, he's reacting to your energy. He's reacting to his own energy. That's a fair point.
Karen Koehler :He's good at telling me that I'm hurting his feelings. Most tell me that I'm hurting your feelings.
Mo Hamoudi :I just think you should be honest with people. Yes there's nothing wrong with that. And then when I say that she goes, yeah she recognizes what she's doing, then she gets less spicy.
Karen Koehler :I mean, I'm also super impatient, like it's just. I just am irritable.
Mike Todd:But that's all part of it. It is. I mean, that's just you trying to shove it down inside and then it's leaking out a little bit.
Karen Koehler :I'm not trying to shove it down inside anymore. It should be over by now. I'm surprised that it's lasted this long. It's lasted over by now. I'm surprised that it's lasted this long.
Mike Todd:It's lasted over a week, yeah, but it should be over. I think that was an intense case.
Karen Koehler :Yeah.
Mike Todd:Even though it was short, I think there was a lot to it and I think that cases like that are tough.
Karen Koehler :They're all encompassing.
Mike Todd:Yeah, yeah, I mean that takes a lot out of you.
Karen Koehler :Yeah.
Mike Todd:And in this case it builds up a lot inside of you which you didn't get to release because it's over.
Karen Koehler :Yeah.
Mo Hamoudi :It's over, it's over.
Karen Koehler :And it's over. Okay, that's good, is that it? That was a good one.
