The Velvet Hammer™ Podcast

The Penis Restraining Order

• Karen Koehler and Mo Hamoudi • Season 5 • Episode 29

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Episode 29 - The Penis Restraining Order - This episode includes discussion of sexual assault and explicit anatomical references. It contains mature content that may not be appropriate for all listeners. Listener discretion is advised. 

Karen Koehler walks us through one of the most outrageous, unforgettable, and legally strategic motions she has ever filed: a request to restrain rapper Nelly’s penis. Yes, you read that right.

This episode is a wild ride, from the Kent courthouse to the press frenzy that followed, as Karen breaks down why she believed the request was legitimate, how the defense team reacted, and what it was like to stand before a judge and argue a motion no one saw coming. Mo Hamoudi and Mike Todd react in real time, going from disbelief to total admiration.

But behind the laughs is a serious point. How do you make sure the justice system addresses the harm of sexual violence when standard procedures feel inadequate? Karen flips the script by putting the alleged assailant’s body on notice and forces the defense to talk about it.

In the Press:

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Hosted by Karen Koehler and Mo Hamoudi, trial lawyers at Stritmatter Law, a nationally recognized plaintiff personal injury and civil rights law firm based in Washington State.

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Mo Hamoudi:

Happy Monday.

Karen Koehler :

You're growing a beard I am growing a beard. All right.

Mike Todd:

Is that just from this weekend?

Karen Koehler :

You went into the woods, you did jujitsu.

Mike Todd:

The testosterone just pushed the hair out automatically.

Mo Hamoudi:

Yes, I did. I went into the woods. I went into the wild, I did jujitsu, I shot firearms. I jumped into a cold river. I went into a wood fire sauna I ate by the fire and hung out with a bunch of dudes.

Karen Koehler :

He is basically reverted.

Mo Hamoudi:

I have.

Karen Koehler :

Several million generations.

Mo Hamoudi:

I am Mo caveman. It was fantastic. All right, that's awesome.

Karen Koehler :

Today, let's talk about one of my nearest and dearest, happiest subjects, which is bringing novel proceedings before the court, and I have the best story to start off with.

Mo Hamoudi:

Let's hear it.

Karen Koehler :

All right before the court and I have the best story to start off with. Let's hear it. All right, so I had a lawsuit on behalf of a young woman who alleged alleged um that she was sexually assaulted uh by uh, nelly who's nelly?

Karen Koehler :

what? Oh, you'll just have to hear this story. So and I actually had a second alleged victim that I represented, so there's two. But this started off with the first one and I brought a motion early on in the case. So and I also drafted this lawsuit. So I drafted the lawsuit, which put all the facts of the alleged assault in there. It explained who Nelly was.

Mo Hamoudi:

Okay.

Karen Koehler :

Nelly was a rapper.

Mo Hamoudi:

Oh, Nelly Still is.

Karen Koehler :

Still is a rapper from years gone by, from like the 90s from the 90s, I would say so he's doing some kind of like old school show and um, so anyway, um, filed, you know, filed this lawsuit and it had many things in it. You know, you, when you file a lawsuit, it's it's. You say the facts, you say the liability, and then there's causes of action, like what do you want the court to do about it? And in civil cases normally, yeah what is it?

Karen Koehler :

we've been talking about it money yeah money but, sometimes you can ask for other things like what what Like? I asked for a restraining order.

Mo Hamoudi:

Oh, you did.

Karen Koehler :

Yes.

Mo Hamoudi:

In the lawsuit.

Karen Koehler :

In the lawsuit.

Mo Hamoudi:

Restrain Nellie from my client.

Karen Koehler :

Well, no, not exactly. Okay, what did? You say it was a bigger because I also believe in like the purpose of a lawsuit should be a bigger purpose to serve the public good.

Mike Todd:

All right.

Karen Koehler :

So the restraining order was against his penis. I wanted it to stay. Wait a minute. I wanted it to stay away from fans after the concert. I wanted it to Wait a minute.

Mo Hamoudi:

I wanted it to stay away from fans after the concert. I wanted it to Wait a minute Stop.

Karen Koehler :

What Wait? A minute, stop I knew I could wake him up. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Yes, I did.

Mo Hamoudi:

Wait, you restrained his penis.

Karen Koehler :

Yes, so they wanted that out and we wait. What do you mean?

Mo Hamoudi:

they wanted it, they wanted, no, they wanted.

Karen Koehler :

They wanted what is happening he comes back from the woods. All masculine. And here I come with a restraining order about the penis you just. So I can't remember if they moved to dismiss that out of the lawsuit which they could have or if we moved to enforce it, it doesn't matter, but I believe they moved to dismiss it and other things out of the lawsuit.

Mo Hamoudi:

Yeah, yeah.

Karen Koehler :

And Andrew was working on a case with me at the time. Now we know whose idea the restraining order was yes for sure.

Mike Todd:

It was not Andrew's idea. It's not Andrew.

Mo Hamoudi:

I have not asked him, but I am 100% confident it was not Andrew.

Karen Koehler :

So we go. It was in Kent Regional Justice Center, which is in Kent. King County is so big that there's a Seattle King County and then there's a Kent King County Court. They're separate because the King County is one of the biggest counties in the country. So we went to Kent Regional Justice Center and his attorney was a real big mouth, pr focused guy.

Mike Todd:

I can remember that and was he from out of state?

Karen Koehler :

Oh yeah, they were all out of state yeah, and he was threatening me this and the whole time. He was always threatening me and he's like, oh, I know everything and I am, so I'm famous lawyer and and I looked up all the crap on this lawyer I'm like, oh God, um, so blowhard let me just say that a blowhard lawyer, uh, from uh, wherever he was from.

Karen Koehler :

So he shows up along with Nellie's agent from California. Nellie's not there and it's basically we all know what's coming right. It's the penis injunction hearing. So we get up there and Andrew you know Andrew is my second chair and you know he should be arguing these motions. He's good at arguing motions. He does not want to argue the motion.

Mo Hamoudi:

Wait, I'm not arguing a penis motion.

Karen Koehler :

He told me he wasn't going to argue it. He's good at arguing motions. He does not want to argue the motion. Wait, I'm not arguing a penis motion. He told me he wasn't going to argue it. He's like I'm not going to argue it, what? And I'm like okay, I'll argue it. This is great. So we get up there. They're sitting on the. So the court is in the middle up high. It's a female judge. They are sitting on the. If you were looking at the judge, they're on the right side in the front tables. I think there's three of them, but I only remember who the two were the attorney and the agent. Maybe there was some other guy. And then there was me and Andrew and I argued. I argued it yeah, and this is what the judge has called Now. The judge was not mad at me. The judge actually was trying not to smile. I knew it. I could tell she was trying not to smile, especially when she said that it was a very interesting motion.

Mo Hamoudi:

It wasn't interesting.

Karen Koehler :

But and I just can remember her little cheekies and kind of just she says I'm concerned about how would we enforce this? Wait a minute.

Mo Hamoudi:

I bet you she said that. She said that knowing it's going to create a laugh.

Karen Koehler :

Yes, it was so funny. I mean, she's like, you know, I'm very creative or interesting, whatever she said. But you know, how would we go about enforcing this? And yeah, which, of course, is the issue, Like, if you have a restraining order, you have to be able to enforce it.

Mo Hamoudi:

Yeah.

Karen Koehler :

So we basically would have to follow him around. Anyway, they were not amused, oh my gosh. They were hoofing and hollering and yeah. So he was very unpleasant the whole time, very unpleasant the whole time. So I can't talk about anything else about the case. I could talk about some things, but Did the motion get granted?

Mike Todd:

No, she denied it, cause I couldn't figure out how there was no way to put handcuffs on his penis.

Mo Hamoudi:

Oh, you mean their motion was granted to strike? The penis provision, yeah, and then so, like what I want to hear, I want to hear what did you articulate as a time, place, place, manner, restriction on the penis. What did you say?

Karen Koehler :

I'm sure I came up with something, because I always have something to say.

Mo Hamoudi:

Okay, but I can't remember. Is there a transcript somewhere? I'm sure there is somewhere. I've got to see this transcript.

Karen Koehler :

But I don't know what we did with it. It happened five years ago, now, six years ago, I can't remember ago, now, six years ago, I can't remember uh, but anyway, that was an example of a motion that that uh was brought for the, for the, for the point of the matter, for the point of the matter.

Mo Hamoudi:

Well, so I want to do a follow-up. When you drafted the complaint, did you? You put into the complaint restrain his penis as a form of relief, and then they moved a motion to strike the provision to restrain his penis, yes, and then all right. So I want to walk through this. So when you're drafting a complaint and I've seen your complaints, they're very detailed storytelling At what point do you decide like a penis needs to be a party to this action?

Karen Koehler :

Like, did you?

Mo Hamoudi:

make that decision before. Like before or as you're writing, you're like oh penis.

Karen Koehler :

As I was doing it, I was like you know, like this is an issue, Plus, I always do due diligence right, so I talk to people.

Mo Hamoudi:

What do you mean? Talk to people?

Karen Koehler :

I make sure that you know what happened, I believe.

Mo Hamoudi:

I see you make sure.

Karen Koehler :

Yes, you have to. Cr 11 requires you to do a good faith, you know.

Mo Hamoudi:

Basis to make the allegations Research.

Karen Koehler :

Yeah, I looked at everything I looked at and felt that I completely believed my client.

Mo Hamoudi:

Yeah.

Karen Koehler :

I mean completely believed the client, Completely believe the client, and if this was true, then in my opinion, as a female, this was kind of like the next essential step. Like I said, public safety.

Mo Hamoudi:

Public safety and did you talk to Andrew and like come to a conclusion, like we're going to do this?

Karen Koehler :

We're going after the penis. He knew I was going to do it. There's no stopping me when I'm going to do something.

Mo Hamoudi:

Did Andrew try to persuade you to hey, let's take the penis out?

Karen Koehler :

He just didn't want to argue it.

Mo Hamoudi:

So he said let's leave it in, but I don't want to touch it.

Karen Koehler :

So to speak, so to speak.

Mo Hamoudi:

This is the best monday ever this is the best monday ever. Okay, wait, there's more, because I am just having fun, all right. So did you meet and confirm about the motion before you went to court?

Karen Koehler :

no, you don't have to, but we had been you, he'd been playing his whole story, the attorney, to the press. And you know, like I said, they have this PR thing, they had his agent. You know they wanted you know this to go away.

Mo Hamoudi:

Yeah.

Karen Koehler :

You know yeah.

Mo Hamoudi:

Did he call you and be like what are you doing? What is this?

Karen Koehler :

I'm so big and I'm so bad and I'm going to crush you. It was just one of those kind of guys. So was he acting like a penis Of course yes, and you know what happens when that happens to me, mike, I can't help myself.

Mike Todd:

I know it's too easy.

Karen Koehler :

I am not intimidated by a penis.

Mike Todd:

No.

Karen Koehler :

Let's just put this down.

Mo Hamoudi:

Don't worry, we know that. No, you don't need to tell us that, and you know it started at a very young age. Like when I was born.

Karen Koehler :

No, because no, you got to listen because my dad was a professor at the University of Washington.

Mo Hamoudi:

Okay.

Karen Koehler :

And his specialty was sperm. Wait what? Yes, I saw sperm in electron microscopes before I started kindergarten. I've known all about the penis my whole life, Like there's no mystery involved.

Mo Hamoudi:

Okay, that's great, because you got educated about it.

Karen Koehler :

Right, I know what those things are.

Mike Todd:

And they're not as powerful as you think.

Mo Hamoudi:

Not in this, for sure, not in this case, for sure. Okay, um, um did the press report on this penis motion. Yeah, I gotta go look this up because that's, that's just yeah it was in the news at the time, for sure. I mean, it takes some cojones to do that, by the way, to like move to restrain a penis.

Karen Koehler :

What's a?

Mo Hamoudi:

cojones, that's balls yes that's balls. That's why I set that up, to see if Mike would bite any fish.

Mike Todd:

I just wasn't going to go there too fast. Oh God, I'm crying.

Mo Hamoudi:

This is so funny.

Karen Koehler :

I mean no, it was just it was. Was it what it was? It was?

Mike Todd:

Okay, we should move on to the next interesting motion.

Karen Koehler :

I think honestly that that was just. There's nothing, there's no copying that one. There's not much, no, and you can finish your thought and we're going to move on and finish this. This will be a very short podcast.

Mo Hamoudi:

This will be very short, because it deserves its own platform. It does, I agree. I will say this the moral of the story there is that Don't mess with me and my clients, but it's not just don't mess with you.

Mo Hamoudi:

I think that if someone is watching and wants to learn how to apply what we just spoke about into their own practice which is, I think, really important is that don't feel bound by what you believe to be decorum, because what you did was fairly bold and the judge did not like call you out to say, miss color, that's inappropriate. She understood the context of what you were trying to accomplish. It met the objectives of what you were trying to do for the client. That that was the source of her distress. And what you did is you took what usually when you're talking about sexual assault, you're talking about somebody being humiliated and shame and you flip the script because when you wrote something like that into the complaint, it put his own body on notice. You think you can take advantage of somebody else's body? Well, your body is now out in the open.

Mo Hamoudi:

Thank, Thank you, so I think that tactically I think that's great. But that's the lesson. But it was, what a great laugh.

Mike Todd:

Don't you think also that you, in a way, were able to manipulate the press in the same way that they were trying to on their own?

Karen Koehler :

Me Moi.

Mo Hamoudi:

It's called season. No, I know.

Mike Todd:

Karen does this one often. You have to go Moi. It's called season.

Karen Koehler :

No, I know, karen does this one often and I think that you have to go. You have, if a lawyer is going to, you know, try a case in the public forum which they were like I said, who?

Mike Todd:

They had a team, a PR team, working on it.

Karen Koehler :

He didn't show up to the hearing, His agent did, His lawyer did and some other person and they are sitting there trying this case before it's anything against this. You know she was a college student person. Then bring it on. You cannot ignore that as a lawyer. You cannot ignore that as a lawyer, If you're in that kind of a case, you have to protect your client on all forms, on all levels. You have to. If a lawyer says, well, I'm never going to touch the media, then I think you're doing a huge disservice because your client in the public eye has just lost their, their case.

Mike Todd:

Well, and you just made them talk about their client's penis, so I think that was a messy. Well, yes, that was.

Karen Koehler :

that was one of the goals was to hear him have to say that in court. Andrew, andrew, by the way, if you could have seen Andrew, he could not put his head under the table but he sat there with his eyes, just he could not put his head under the table. But he just sat there with his eyes just looking at me, just watching the whole thing, just watching it go. He was immovable, he did not move. I didn't even know if he was breathing. Through the whole thing that's great, that's awesome. All right.

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Karen Koehler

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Mo Hamoudi

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