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The Velvet Hammer™ Podcast
Trial lawyers can be real people, too—and this podcast proves it. The Velvet Hammer™ is back, and this time, Karen Koehler isn’t going it alone. Known for her fearless advocacy, bold storytelling, and, yes, even the occasional backwards dress moment, Karen is teaming up with Mo Hamoudi, a lawyer, poet, and storyteller whose empathy and resilience add a whole new dynamic to the show.
Together, they’re pulling back the curtain on trial law, diving into bold topics, heartfelt stories, and the messy, hilarious moments that make trial lawyers human. This is an unscripted, raw, and fun take on life inside—and outside—the courtroom.
The Velvet Hammer™ Podcast
DEI, WAMs, and Legal Power Plays
Episode 28: DEI, WAMs, and Legal Power Plays |
Karen Koehler shares the 2008 letter that shook up the American Association for Justice (AAJ), calling out its failure to address diversity in any meaningful way. The fallout was instant. She lost friends, made enemies, and set off a chain reaction that eventually pushed the organization to adopt a formal diversity plan.
Joined by Mo Hamoudi and Mike Todd, the trio breaks down what it takes to call out power from within. Karen confronts the reality of being a woman in a white male-dominated legal association, while Mo shares his own story of challenging performative DEI during his time at the Federal Public Defender. Mike weighs in on the backroom politics of change and how real reform often depends on who is even allowed to write a letter (and have it taken seriously) in the first place.
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Hosted by Karen Koehler and Mo Hamoudi, trial lawyers at Stritmatter Law, a nationally recognized plaintiff personal injury and civil rights law firm based in Washington State.
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So okay, so we have a flight in two hours, we're going to San Francisco, and what are we doing in San Francisco together?
Karen Koehler :We're going to AAJ.
Mo Hamoudi :And what is AAJ?
Karen Koehler :American Association for Justice, all right. It's a trial lawyer bar.
Mo Hamoudi :Okay.
Karen Koehler :And we're going to go back in time to this is my evidence folder here. A little fight I had at AAJ, actually one of many, but just one.
Mo Hamoudi :You in a fight, a shocker, shocker.
Karen Koehler :And it always involves the same subject. You probably know what the subject is.
Mo Hamoudi :It's not about food.
Karen Koehler :It's always about diversity.
Mo Hamoudi :It's always about diversity.
Karen Koehler :yes, so I have. I mean, I kept so much stuff. It's very interesting. This is my whole folder on this thing. So, mike, you can probably zoom in on this. Here was a seminar that I was going to go speak at, and what I would do whenever I would get a seminar program would be I would go through it and I would check, I would count. My kids have talked about me counting before. So there are 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 speakers on this program. It's in Jazz Fest, so it means it's in New Orleans. They still kind of have it, but we do it every year as a speaker there. So I go through and I count One, two, three, three. There are three non-white male speakers on this program, three of 14.
Mo Hamoudi :What year is that?
Karen Koehler :This is, although I dare you to go do it again. This was in 2009.
Mo Hamoudi :2009, okay.
Karen Koehler :And then I would go through their trial magazine and, by the way, I love AJ, they do fantastic work 2009. Okay, and then I would go, like, through their trial magazine and, by the way, I love AJ, they do fantastic work and they are a huge presence in Washington DC, but that doesn't mean that they can't do better.
Mo Hamoudi :Okay.
Karen Koehler :And so I would go through right, I would go through their magazine that comes out every month, through their, their magazine that comes out every month, and I would. I would look to see how many articles count and I would count, I would go through them. There was staff count, staff would write some articles. I'm gonna write okay, here's one bill. Bill wrote this article. It's like five pages long. Jeffrey wrote this one.
Mo Hamoudi :Who's Bill, who's Jeffrey?
Karen Koehler :Well, I'm just saying, donald.
Mo Hamoudi :Oh, you're just kind of calling them out.
Mike Todd:Stephen Just calling out white men names. Essentially, that's right.
Karen Koehler :Mark, mark and I know most of them and they're really good, irwin.
Mo Hamoudi :Oh.
Karen Koehler :Irwin, irwin, and there you have it.
Mo Hamoudi :No Moe, no Karen, no Lisa.
Karen Koehler :I mean so this was this article came out, yeah, in 2019.
Mo Hamoudi :What year is that, maggie, 2009, also 2009.
Karen Koehler :So Okay, I wrote a letter.
Karen Koehler :I wrote an email, oops. So I wrote a letter. I wrote an email, oops. And I wrote this email in 2008. At the time, I was president of the trial lawyers here in Washington State. Obviously a little too full of myself, and I wrote this here. I wrote this. Obviously a little too full of myself and I wrote this here. I wrote this. I write this letter to AEJ and I sent it to the board of directors and the executives. I write this letter to AEJ after attending the Midwinter Convention in Puerto Rico.
Karen Koehler :Let me just skip to the part I was talking about being at the Council of Presidents and this parade of people. It is my opinion that AAJ's leadership has utterly failed to appreciate and take action on the issue of diversity in an institutional manner that can have hope of any true result, in an institutional manner that can have hope of any true result. I share this, not out of a need to engage in negative criticism, but with the hope that by frank expression of opinion, perhaps I can make some sort of a difference. For too long I have listened to the sugarcoating, the talking around, the politically correct statements of AAJ in relation to this issue, until people are not worried about making waves, whatever the internal political repercussions, aaj will continue to flander, even regress, on this most important issue. Blah, blah, blah. For this is what the current framework is.
Karen Koehler :Leadership goes, in this case, to the Women's Caucus or the Minority Caucus, both of which I belong to, and asks the people to get more involved so change can occur. They ask these members to assume leadership positions or to speak or to become visible. This strategy shows itself perhaps at its worst when, at the Minority Caucus, the lineup of male leadership stops by for a total of five minutes max. Not only do they say quote, get involved, but they also urge us to make more money so we can afford to be one of them and then, nodding and smiling, they leave. This is not how diversity happens. You do not go and mouth platitudes and act eagerly for people to step up. Such a passive approach will never bear fruit Without the consciousness of a female or minority leader who will reach out and grab a like person.
Karen Koehler :The rest of the leadership seemingly flows with the status quo. The newest push by AAJ is to have women and minorities quote, get active within their sections. Let me tell you of my experience in the motor vehicle highway premises section. That's one that I was president of and I became an officer in. I became an officer because I was the first speaker one morning and a nominee failed to show. Over the next three years, until I became the chair, there were no other females or minorities on the roster. Each year a wham. Now you know what a wham is.
Mo Hamoudi :No, what is that?
Karen Koehler :A white alpha male.
Mo Hamoudi :A white alpha male?
Karen Koehler :Yes, okay, wham Each year a wham would caucus with friends and put himself on the ballot, daring anyone to challenge him. The year I was chair, three whams from New York wanted to be on the roster. I literally exerted executive authority, pulled one of the nominations and told them I was going to Minority Caucus to fill the slot. They were surprised but didn't object. I went to Minority Caucus and recruited an African-American male. I told him he now had a mission to make sure that there would be another minority on the panel when he left. And he did Blah, blah, blah blah, blah, blah, blah.
Karen Koehler :Within days of becoming chair of the MVC section, I received email after email and phone calls from WAMs who desired to speak at the next year's convention. I offended many of them by telling them I would get back to them if I determined their topic would fit within our program. I then physically recruited female and minority speakers for the panel. Until and unless you have diverse section leaders who are conscious of the need to promote diversity, you will not have diverse speakers in your section CLEs. So there are at least two problems A little to no safeguards within the organization to ensure that diversity is not just hoped for but effectuated, and B no reaching out and into the caucuses to pluck and place diverse members into positions that feed into the leadership chain. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay, I'm very confrontational of a person sometimes. I just am. I'm just very direct. That wasn't that confrontational.
Karen Koehler :I didn't put in everything. It was totally confrontational. Oh, it was the president then of AAJ said. This is his first response to me. It was a thought it was this email. I didn't read the whole thing. It was four pages long, single spaced okay I wrote it on an airplane.
Karen Koehler :He wrote back, so this is his first statement. You're the first person who's ever called me an alpha male, with or without a racial adjective, or a wham, as you put it. I won't take offense, because I do understand and share your frustration. You and I have never discussed these issues. It is apparent that you do not know who I am and really have no idea how I feel about these issues, and you have no idea what I've done to promote women and minorities within and without AHA. I would suggest that you ask around before you make assumptions about my and actions, or you can ask me directly blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It was, it was, it was um, um, yeah. So I, of course, responded. I never don't respond.
Mo Hamoudi :Yeah, I know that.
Karen Koehler :I always want to have the last word.
Mo Hamoudi :Yes, you do respond.
Karen Koehler :Yeah, I know that I always want to have the last word. Yes, you do. And basically, again, it's a three-paragraph, but I just want to read a little bit. I'm not within the inner group of AAJM and I'm not vested in having to be delicate with my concern like so many others who wish more could be done, perhaps, who even quietly try to get things done, but who run into institutional roadblocks. I am that focus group participant who has a different perspective than you do, for whatever reason, the one you may not want to hear but need to hear in order to get it right. I am rattling the cages and hoping you will see, beyond the initial feeling of being personally tapped, to my true purpose of promoting radical internal examination and proactive correction of aaj's diversity problem. Okay, I mean, this continues on, but what do you want to talk about?
Karen Koehler :I'm going back to aaj. A lot of people don't like me because this is how I am a lot of people at aaj don't like you. Certain people, or just generally speaking people, don't like you, certain people at AAJ don't like me.
Mo Hamoudi :That's their problem.
Karen Koehler :Okay.
Mo Hamoudi :What do you want to talk about?
Karen Koehler :I want to talk about when you are in an institution.
Mo Hamoudi :Okay.
Karen Koehler :And you want there to be change. Yeah, there's a politic way to go about it.
Mo Hamoudi :Yes.
Karen Koehler :And then there's the non-politic way, mike, to go about it, yes, and then there's the non-politic way, mike. Which way did I choose?
Mo Hamoudi :The non-politic way. I just think that that was actually politic.
Karen Koehler :The reason.
Mike Todd:Well, there's different very there's different degrees of politic. Yes, she's using a political tactic which is attacking by the front.
Karen Koehler :As opposed to as opposed to.
Mike Todd:As opposed, most politics come from the back. Oh, that's right. Okay, they try to like sneak in and mix it up within the institution itself, where Karen went frontally and just slammed through the front door.
Mo Hamoudi :Attila the Hun, yes, Not Sun Tzu Attila theahan. Yes, not Sun Tzu Atilla Dahan, yes.
Mike Todd:And that works sometimes, but it also like in this instance, I feel, at least from what you read he just went with the stock answer of I do so much. You don't even know what I'm doing. And how could you accuse me of being like this when I'm not like this at all? You can talk to all of my female friends and they will tell you that I am a great. I have lots of, I have lots of friends that are of minority groups and I've promoted two or three of them throughout my entire career. I mean, that's what they're saying, that's how they, that's how those people talk.
Karen Koehler :So what happened was and I lost a friend because of this, because she was also in the circle of presidents and she basically went to them and said that she didn't, that I didn't speak for her, and you know that she was embarrassed or apologized for my behavior, and I told her. She stabbed me in the back and I just cut her for my life. Um, so so, but so this was in 2008. Okay, I had no power within aaj. I. I had had no desire to go, as you can tell, up through the ranks to become an officer in aaj. There's, it's very political. I'm not, I think, like you know, united states political. That's not me. It has a lot of requirements. They are more politician um, just all not me, and so I had nothing to lose, but it was interesting to watch what happened.
Karen Koehler :So, after that happened, there's some things that happened that I'm not going to go into because it's a long story, but if you go back about four or five years ago, I was in a group one of the most and I think I might have talked about this once one of the most. They have these litigation groups which are very powerful and very, very good, like if you want to go to a particular area of law. They have these groups and these groups can become powerful and I was in a very powerful one and it was so dysfunctional. There were like three women in the inner circle of this executive litigation committee which I had been brought into, and all these New York, texas, california, whams sorry, yeah, like there was no minorities in there, it was all male and then three women, maybe four, three or four women, um total of out of like 30 and the executive, because once you were in the executive litigation group, you were never out of it.
Karen Koehler :So it was, it was, it was anyway. They were promoting a whole nother slate of dudes and I did something similar to this. I called him out and I said I'm done, I, I, I have no tolerance of of this and I left that group and that's what I've done ever since is I'm just like, I'm just, I'm just done with it, like I don't care enough anymore. I cared more than in 2009, but let me tell you what happened between those two events 2009 and 2000, let's say 22 maybe I became a board member of aaj because someone needed to do it from our state and I went and I was asked to do it. And that group, that leadership group within aaj, circled their wagons and contacted leadership, executive, leadership of trialers in Washington State and told me that they backed. They didn't back me, they backed my archenemy who I was no longer talking, the one that was who was behind them when you?
Karen Koehler :did the first letter. Which they're prohibited from ever interfering in state organizations, but they all did it.
Mo Hamoudi :Yeah.
Karen Koehler :And this is why. So, when I go to AAJ, I have mixed feelings. There's the people I like, and then there's the people I don't like things. There's the people I like, and then there's the people I don't like.
Mike Todd:So my question would be why do you participate at all?
Karen Koehler :Good point, right, because they are so valuable. Like I donate a lot of money to them because their lobbyists are bar none, probably some of the greatest ones I've ever known. Because how does a small little organization go up against big pharma, big business, big insurance and prevent tort reform on a national level? It's because of organizations like AAJ, which are few and far between, so that's a huge reason. Reason and the second one is because for all of the people that I don't like, there's maybe not as many that I do really really like, and I think that's the lesson of life in general. Like, no matter where you are, when you're in a group, even in an office, you're never gonna be buddies with everyone. But that doesn't mean that you don't benefit from it. So I have just really good friends that I like to see. I don't learn as much as I used to because I'm one of the older people that even go to these organizations now, but I also am very interested in what's new. I'm a curious mind and I really love some of the people.
Mike Todd:So I guess my question would be was your original letter effective in change?
Karen Koehler :So what happened was, after that happened, which I didn't go into, I was a member of the Minority Caucus and we decided to ask them to implement a diversity mission statement, a diversity plan for the organization.
Karen Koehler :The organization had not had one and trial lawyers here in Washington State had had one for over 10 years. So we just took that one, ed and I worked on it and re-edited it, but we were met with a lot of opposition, shocker. So we've presented it and walked away from it, and then they all, so they did not take it and adopt it. What they did is they started from scratch? Maybe they took it and adopt it. What they did is they started from scratch. Maybe they took a peek at it, but they did implement a diversity plan within the organization and the organization has gotten better, although there's examples, like I just told you, of the group that I just left a couple years ago, where it was same old, same old. So they try, but and now, now I don't even know if they would even try, because can we even have diversity anymore?
Mike Todd:no yeah I'll say it we can't right now, in this political environment.
Karen Koehler :We've got major us companies who are bowing to the king so when I, when I huffed and puffed and left that other if I'm going to go out, I'm going to go out with a bang and so I wrote and did blogs and all that stuff when I left that executive litigation group I don't want to say they got in trouble, but they got watched they got a staff person assigned to go there they had to make a rule change. Um, I don't know how much they've changed since then, Cause I don't go back there, but my little have some puffs, have always got some kind of reaction. That's led to something else and that's, I guess, the my point of my story today. I could go sit there and become part of the process and, you know, follow all the rules and be polite and just gently guide people. But that's not my way.
Karen Koehler :My way, as was described by Gerhard Letzing, executive director of the Washington State Trial Lawyers Association for 30 years, was Karen Thoreau's bombs, and you better just hope she doesn't throw them your way. But they're not because of just my own, for my own personal satisfaction, although sometimes they kind of are, because I like to see what happens. But I don't think that you can always make change peacefully, I don't. I think that you a lot of times have to just throw the bomb. The question is what is your motivation? My motivation was like let's make this world a better place. Let's not have three out of 14 speakers be non-white male men even if they are effective at lobbying in the political environment yeah, I don't.
Karen Koehler :I mean that's the whole point mo. You've been very quiet well, I'm listening mo. So Mo is very politic and he doesn't throw bombs.
Mo Hamoudi :That's not necessarily true.
Mike Todd:He throws them a lot more sneakily than he would.
Karen Koehler :What bombs have you thrown? Not that it's a good thing, mo, you don't have to be.
Mo Hamoudi :It's not like it's a good thing or a bad thing, but I guess I don't view the email that you wrote a bomb. I just view your email as a very vulnerable and transparent call out to do something correct. That was what you perceived to be incorrect.
Karen Koehler :I call them whams. I call the current president a wham.
Mo Hamoudi :By the way, I don't think alpha male is White. Alpha male Okay, the white, I get it, but like I don't know what, would you call me a?
Karen Koehler :brown alpha male. I didn't come up with that, by the way.
Mo Hamoudi :I didn't come up with that, someone else did, and I thought, yeah, that's a good way to put it, but if you called me an alpha male, I'd be like thank you for the compliment, but I don't know why that guy took the email the way he did. He wasn't just the American Association for Justice. Whoever he is, it was clear to me that he got very defensive for the wrong reasons and he had an opportunity to be like hey, karen, thanks for pointing that out. I just looked at the—.
Karen Koehler :Okay, but you've changed the subject.
Mo Hamoudi :What do you want to know?
Karen Koehler :You were supposed to tell us if you've ever thrown a bomb. I can't believe that you have. You might have thought of the bombs you can throw.
Mo Hamoudi :No, I have thrown bombs. I. You might have thought of the bombs you can throw. No, I have thrown bombs I. Just can't, right now, in the middle of the podcast, remember precise examples he hasn't.
Karen Koehler :I'm telling you, I'm going to call you out on it.
Mo Hamoudi :I have, I just I cannot recall.
Karen Koehler :I'm not talking about when you were five, laughing, laughing, laughing in an organization. I mean, Mike, have you ever done anything like that? It does take a certain level of.
Mike Todd:I'm more, I will say I am more backroom than I am. Frontal assault. Yeah, when it comes to political situations and that's because I'm usually coming, I mean, you know like I'm not anyone of importance in most of those situations. So you, like I would say, when you wrote that letter, you did it knowing that you had a position where you could make that statement and still get away with it, where borderline, I mean if one of the new attorneys at our firm did that in 2008 right what would happen?
Mike Todd:right, they probably wouldn't have gotten a response at all at all. It would have been ignored yeah entirely, and that's why those you know, that's why people in positions of power are able to get away with stuff like that, because they are allowed to ignore the rank and file if they want to. That's you know, whereas you came from someone who you were, someone who had been in positions that were in power at a state level, so they had to respond to you. If they didn't, it would have been worse for them.
Karen Koehler :It's true.
Mike Todd:And and I mean I hate to point this at both of you, but you guys are all attorneys, so you have the fear of a legal fight in situations like that, like if they dismissed you and ignored it and continued the thing, then you would have had the possibility of bringing some sort of litigation against them. You know, yeah, okay, not for sure, but at some point it's possible.
Karen Koehler :Because Moe's been feverishly thinking about a bomb.
Mo Hamoudi :Okay, I was on a DEI committee and I threw a bomb.
Karen Koehler :Wait where.
Mo Hamoudi :At my former job at the Federal Public Defender.
Karen Koehler :What did you throw?
Mo Hamoudi :I taught that the DEI initiative was misplaced, a drain. It was self-involved, self-indulgent. It was basically an opportunity for people to, in a silo, complain about personal stuff and nonsense, and the email I sent was that the mission of this institution is to help people who are poor, who can't access the courts, and none of our clients, who are right now locked up at the federal detention center, care a lick about diversity, equity, inclusion. They want to know how the hell are we going to help them, and so sometimes I think these diversity initiatives, in my view, become something that is totally untethered from mission. So that's when I threw a bomb and it caused quite a bit of ruckus, because I'm a diverse person, I come from a diverse background.
Karen Koehler :You weren't saying that you believe that there should not be any DEIA. You're saying that you need to have a good mission.
Mo Hamoudi :No, I was saying that and I was making a larger observation, that everybody got caught up with the dei issues in 2019, 2020. Um, with the black lives matter movement, it just things started to like move quite in a particular direction and then what I started to realize was like it's just moving for its own sake and and and it's not really doing anything to advance a particular institution's mission, in my view, like our mission, I don't know, you know, and then I started to see examples of it in other organizations and I was like this has become a distraction. It's just like to talk for talk's sake. So I don't disagree with the concept of diversity, equity and inclusion. I think that, like, where I started to throw bombs was that I started to be a counterpoint to the movement in very particularized circumstances.
Karen Koehler :Yeah, because I just want to like grab you by the throat right now, like because you're a little bit vague, and so I'm thinking like who are you?
Mo Hamoudi :What do you mean? Who am I? Are you?
Karen Koehler :like? Are you like one of Donald Trump's henchmen that are trying to get rid of all DEIA programs?
Mo Hamoudi :No, absolutely not, Absolutely not. I just think that, like sometimes, organizations implement DEI for the purpose of people in the organization to feel good about themselves. They have really nothing to do about what the core problem with issues related to diversity, equity and inclusion are and they're not really serious about confronting it, but they put on the—.
Mike Todd:That's what I would go with. This is that it's not just that— it's that they're implementing a policy for the visual. Yes, it's not an actual. They don't have the purpose of it doing anything. It's just there to say that they have it.
Mo Hamoudi :Yes, and so when you go start to, the only way you know this is if you get into an organization's committee and you start to hear people talk and then you say, what are you guys talking about? Like this is all a waste of time, and so you know, I get the sense that you know. Like I mean, aaj has the minority caucus. I'm looking at it, I want to go visit it.
Karen Koehler :AAJ has made a lot of strides since 2009.
Mo Hamoudi :But I don't know what the minority caucus is really doing. I'm going to go this year. I'm going to go spend some time. Our friend Ed Moore is going to come in and vouch for me. This is Mo. I know him.
Karen Koehler :He's a guy, they're going to have listened to this podcast and they're not going to let you in. Exactly Well why not? Because you said you're against the EIA.
Mo Hamoudi :That's not what I said. Mike did. I say I'm against the.
Mike Todd:No, you said you were against the policy that they had at the time at the place that you were.
Mo Hamoudi :Thank you, look at you, look at what you do.
Mike Todd:I know she's like a shark.
Mo Hamoudi :She's a shark, chummed water. She's like.
Karen Koehler :I do it all the time He'll call me. He'll be kind of placid. I'm like I just don't want to talk to anymore. You're really boring. He's like what I said I'm here to be entertained, like I need some stuff, okay.
Mo Hamoudi :Definitely entertaining, by the way, I mean. But really, why do you think there's been a huge political shift? Because the DEI, the way it was implemented, in many ways was unattractive to people, because it wasn't about diversity issues. It was about people feeling self-important, like I'm, the leader of diversity, equity and inclusion.
Karen Koehler :Okay, you're being overly broad, Good.
Mike Todd:I would say that it goes even further in that the people that Karen is talking about who you know 20— years ago, were the heads of all of those boards. They never wanted DEI to begin with. So when you fast forward to when you're talking about, then they have the conservative backlash that we have right now. I think a lot of people who probably implemented things at their companies were like I just did this because we had to. Like I said, yeah.
Mike Todd:And now they're like great, we don't have to do it anymore. It was never about what Karen was talking about when she wrote that letter the first time, which is let's have some positive change, let's get a different perspective here, which we've established over these podcasts. It's one of the things that you have and one of the things that Karen has. But a fucking 70-year-old white dude who's been sitting on the top of a board forever. He doesn't have any idea. He's never needed any diversity. He's never needed any of that stuff.
Mike Todd:But, mike, you're absolutely right.
Mo Hamoudi :Oh, I know I am, You're absolutely right, yeah, the other thing is is that you don't need a DEI initiative.
Karen Koehler :By the way, one of the reasons I've always believed that there has been this huge issue, including an attorney organization where I mean, like I just told you, the best thing about this is its political program, its mission it's helping other people you would and you would think that that's the kind of change that we're talking about right now they should be leading the change
Karen Koehler :yeah look at our entire industry as playing a personal injury. It is heavy white male at the top, Heavy, heavy, heavy, so heavy. I mean globally. You know it's still very, very not diverse, but when you look at who's at the top of the profession, it is enormously.
Mo Hamoudi :Old white dudes, it's so true, and they're good looking.
Karen Koehler :And they have really good skin. But they don't want to give up.
Mike Todd:I'm laughing because you said all the people at AAJ look beautiful.
Mo Hamoudi :They're like the most good looking people. Well, they can afford it, I mean they are beautiful and fantastic looking.
Karen Koehler :Just think about it. There is so much money and power involved in making the decision to give equal opportunity to other people that are not in that white male privilege circle it is why would you voluntarily give it up?
Mike Todd:You wouldn't. Well, I mean, that's what's like I said. I feel like that is the one of the big things about today's political environment is. I see all these people saying that they don't like the changes that are happening in this country. Yet they continue to let them happen, and I guarantee it's because of what? The same kind of thing that my dad told me one of the times that he was voting for somebody that I didn't agree with. It's because, in the end, it's all about money. That's what they want, and if they can convince you that the money is going to keep flowing towards you, people vote for it, no matter what they believe.
Karen Koehler :There are people in AAJ that they're all whams that just go around, and they are. They want to be the chair of every single section. They're this collect them like you know. But yeah, put putting your belt buckle. You look at their.
Mike Todd:CV. They've got a list it's just a mile long.
Karen Koehler :I'm the head of trucking. I'm the head of brain injury. I'm the head of medical negligence. I'm the head of trucking. I'm the head of brain injury. I'm the head of medical negligence. I'm the head of motor vehicles. I'm the head. Yeah, they and they just go and there's nothing to stop it.
Karen Koehler :That's an organizational failure, because that personality type which is gonna face it, an aggressive person yeah who happens to typically be white male, will get ahead because they're so freaking aggressive they're going to, and if you don't have institutional safeguards, they're just going to go around and take advantage of every single opportunity. It's like the day that I became the chair of it, I got all these emails, all from whams saying that they wanted to be on the program a year it would be like in august of the next year to speak. I was like this is how it goes, like you don't even have time to go and see who else wants to speak, that it's just there. These same people that are the heads of everything are speaking at everything because they want all the referrals they want. You know, it's market share Money money money, money.
Karen Koehler :But if an institution doesn't have safeguards, that's what happens.
Mo Hamoudi :Well, I mean, that's the institution, that's the way it's designed.
Karen Koehler :All of these institutions are designed by the patriarchy.
Mo Hamoudi :But I can tell you something.
Karen Koehler :I can tell you that they were all designed by men, just like this country.
Mo Hamoudi :But I can tell you that a lot of these organizations are not attractive.
Karen Koehler :Mike is just dying over there.
Mike Todd:Here's Karen standing against the tide of history.
Karen Koehler :It's true.
Mo Hamoudi :Well, okay, but that's history, that's ground truth.
Karen Koehler :We're still living in history. Why isn't it changing, as Alicia used to tell me and I was like hey, good point. Why is there a thing called precedent? Why do we have to rely on precedent? That's a whole other subject. Why is it so hallowed?
Mike Todd:Yeah, I think we can do a whole nother episode on that one.
Karen Koehler :Look where it came from. What the heck we're going to construct.
Mike Todd:Okay, mo. What were you going to say? Okay, go ahead.
Karen Koehler :You're just getting me going.
Mike Todd:I think what.
Mo Hamoudi :I was going to say is that I'll tell you that the generational lawyers that are coming up think this is like that. You know like think this is like that, you know, like yeah, you know, like they're, like they think it's, they think it's like, oh, like it's 1990s, like, oh, go to your little organization.
Mo Hamoudi :And like I can tell you right now, the lawyers are like, whatever these organizations are going to become eventually irrelevant, and the way that law is being practiced, the way that lawyers are organizing around issues and matters are outside of these organizations. So this is why I told Mike I was like this is a place where you go watch all the good looking people yeah.
Karen Koehler :But it's sad because, like I said, their lobbying efforts are crucial.
Mo Hamoudi :I think they'll just change. I think the lobbying efforts are going to change.
Mike Todd:I was going to say there needs to be new organizations is the problem. You need to start new ones from the ground up, which it's not going to be easy.
Karen Koehler :AJ, I still love you. Don't listen to this. Even though I'm critical of it, I still love it.
Mo Hamoudi :Nobody from AJ has reached out to me affirmatively and said oh my goodness, welcome to the practice.
Karen Koehler :No, they will never. It's too big.
Mo Hamoudi :Okay, fine.
Karen Koehler :Did WSAJ reach out to you?
Mo Hamoudi :No, nobody from WSAJ. Oh wait, Elizabeth Hanley reached out to me and asked me for help. That's different.
Mike Todd:That's different. That's not saying hey, welcome.
Mo Hamoudi :No, but she didn't.
Karen Koehler :You're making this up, mo. When you first became a plaintiff lawyer, did anybody contact you from any organization? No okay, you could have said that faster. You didn't even have to think about that.
Mo Hamoudi :That was just like no no, but maybe they just didn't know who the hell I was no, it doesn't, who cares?
Mike Todd:they saw that you were hired by strip matter and, trust me, they knew who strip matter is is because Karen bugs them all the time. That's right, and they knew who it was before, because we had a couple whams here too, yeah.
Karen Koehler :All right. Well, this is you know. Here we go.
Mo Hamoudi :We're off to see the AAJs, and I can't believe. You think I'm a Trump supporter.
Mike Todd:Well, it came out that way. No, I didn't say that.
Karen Koehler :I mean come on, I did.
Mike Todd:She did say that we're going to be the best.
Mo Hamoudi :Number one, we're going to be the best. It's huge, it's huge.
Karen Koehler :But here's my final part. So I know they don't like me. The people that don't like me, the people that don't like me, don't like me, and they probably know that I don't like them, but this is what I do at AHA. So good to see you. How are you Exactly? And thank God. They have to wear name tags because all my arms look the same to me. Now I'm pretty distinctive looking. They know what I look like, but I literally can't tell one apart from the other.
Mike Todd:I can't believe. You just said that they all look the same to me.
Karen Koehler :I can't help it. It's true.
Mo Hamoudi :And I don't think it's bad being an alpha male.
Karen Koehler :Alpha male has nothing to do with it.
Mike Todd:Whams, I said, all right, just saying Alpha male's the second half of wham.
Mo Hamoudi :It's the second half of wham. Like I said, I don't even know where I came up with that. I don't think there's anything wrong with being an alpha male.
Karen Koehler :Okay, we're going to have to do the alpha. We'll do the alpha male the next time.
Mo Hamoudi :Yes, exactly.
Karen Koehler :In the defense of the alpha male.
Mo Hamoudi :I want an episode dedicated to the alpha male.
Karen Koehler :Thank you, okay, that's it.
