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The Velvet Hammer™ Podcast
Trial lawyers can be real people, too—and this podcast proves it. The Velvet Hammer™ is back, and this time, Karen Koehler isn’t going it alone. Known for her fearless advocacy, bold storytelling, and, yes, even the occasional backwards dress moment, Karen is teaming up with Mo Hamoudi, a lawyer, poet, and storyteller whose empathy and resilience add a whole new dynamic to the show.
Together, they’re pulling back the curtain on trial law, diving into bold topics, heartfelt stories, and the messy, hilarious moments that make trial lawyers human. This is an unscripted, raw, and fun take on life inside—and outside—the courtroom.
The Velvet Hammer™ Podcast
Sticks, Stones, and Strategic Responses: How We Handle Being Insulted
How do you respond when someone insults you? In this episode, Karen Koehler, Mo Hamoudi, and Mike Todd explore how their childhood experiences with insults shape their adult mechanisms.
Karen reflects on her mother’s “eye for an eye” parenting style, which shaped her fighter mentality. She shares how that mindset evolved into a professional strength, turning insults into strategy and sometimes using others’ underestimations to her advantage in the courtroom.
Mike's story takes a darker turn as he recounts a traumatic childhood incident where his father encouraged him to fight older bullies but then stood by watching as he was overwhelmed and beaten. This formative experience instilled both a protective instinct and a readiness to project strength when challenged.
As an immigrant child facing racial and cultural taunts, Mo developed yet another approach. Rather than immediate retaliation, he adopted a philosophy of patience: "Time is my vengeance." His chilling anecdote about confronting someone who had wronged a friend demonstrates how calm, measured responses can sometimes be more impactful than heated reactions.
It all raises the question: maybe “sticks and stones” got it wrong. Bones heal, but words seem to leave a mark that lasts.
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Hosted by Karen Koehler and Mo Hamoudi, trial lawyers at Stritmatter Law, a nationally recognized plaintiff personal injury and civil rights law firm based in Washington State.
Produced by Mike Todd, Audio & Video Engineer, and Kassie Slugić, Executive Producer.
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sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me words will never hurt me.
Mo Hamoudi :Or as bambi used to say if you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all is that what it said?
Karen Koehler:this is advice. Is that bambi?
Mike Todd:is that bambi that was thumper yeah, I was gonna say that thumper yes, okay, thum Okay.
Mo Hamoudi :Thumper said it Did.
Mike Todd:Bambi speak.
Mo Hamoudi :No, yeah, bambi was silent. Oh, bambi was silent. Thumper said it.
Karen Koehler:All right, so we're going to talk about what it, what are?
Mo Hamoudi :we talking about.
Karen Koehler:Being insulted and how you respond. We're going to go way back and then talk about it from a lawyer's perspective. Oh okay, All right.
Mo Hamoudi :Were you insulted as a child? Of course. Okay, what's one insult that resonates with you? Four eyes, I had glasses.
Karen Koehler:What I came back and I was like first of all, I didn't get glasses until I was eight.
Mike Todd:Do you wear contacts now?
Mo Hamoudi :Oh, I've always worn one. I didn't know that. I didn't know that.
Karen Koehler:I didn't wear glasses until I was eight with my genius parents. The professor, the chemical engineer became a lawyer. I mean, they didn't take me to go get my eye. I can remember literally remember being in the car and seeing that there were street signs that had things on them instead of just colors. That's how bad my eyesight was, how much they delayed it.
Karen Koehler:Anyway, I wore glasses from grade school and I can remember coming home crying to my mom. Coming home crying to my mom was never a strategy that was going to work, but it took me many years to figure that out.
Mike Todd:I was going to say. From what you told me about your mom, I imagine the reception was a little cold yeah.
Karen Koehler:Pretty much those were the advice words, Like six and stones, you know there was no of the hugging.
Mike Todd:You know, wiping my tears.
Karen Koehler:It was just like what are you complaining about? Go out there and sock them, or go out there and insult them back and find a better one. You know, find a better insult and give it back to them, like my mom was. Just like in your face. Do it fast, immediate. And when you're a kid you're thinking like your brain doesn't work that fast. You're like, okay, what's a bad thing I can say to someone else, but I do. I want to hurt their feelings, but I don't. But they hurt my feelings, but maybe I'll hurt their feelings more. Maybe that won't be fair. You know your little mind is thinking through all this stuff. You're getting this grown-up advice Go back out there and stand up for yourself and shut them down. You know, with words, not with raising your voice.
Karen Koehler:And that's how I grew up with insults. That was my role model for how to deal with insults. Or I could see my dad, who was always insulted by my mom, who just ignored her, or would go down to the garage, into his little cubicle, and avoid her. So I could either walk away or I could stand up and fight. Well, I mean, you know how I'm kind of wired.
Mike Todd:She created a fighter out of that.
Karen Koehler:Yeah. So then, as you get older, you get quicker, and one of the I'm going to make a little teeny segue One of the real skills of being a lawyer is a quick comeback. It's the quick comeback and you can't do that by writing it out, you have to. That was Christina on my phone, on my watch. You have to have that quick comeback. Yeah, because you can't wait a minute, I'm gonna go to my corner and think about an insult to give back to you.
Karen Koehler:I'll be right back yeah hold it, I'll be right back. Let me, let me just think about it. That doesn't work. You have to go, boom, boom no, then you actually.
Mike Todd:If you try that, it's worse than when they they've got another name to call you.
Karen Koehler:Well, there you go. So how do you come up with the wicked comeback? Well, you have to go quick.
Mo Hamoudi :Okay. So when somebody said to you hey, four eyes, what would you say?
Karen Koehler:At least I'm smart.
Mo Hamoudi :Okay, so that was like the comeback. At least I'm smart.
Karen Koehler:I mean it would be something that was denigrating to them, right back.
Mo Hamoudi :But what you just did was accept their characterization of you as four eyes, and you said but yes, I am a four eyes, but I'm smart.
Karen Koehler:Do you see what you did? Well, I wouldn't say yes, I'm a four eyes, because that would mean that I was basically trying to figure. You know, pause everything, make time to repeat what they said. And then no, I don't validate it, I just take it and then go.
Mo Hamoudi :But by not responding to it, you've validated it. Yeah, isn't like the? Don't you want, like the kid, to say, hey, that hurts my feelings. Why would you say that? You know, I mean ideally, I want, I wish I could go back.
Karen Koehler:Wait a minute, we're talking about how we actually were. Okay, all right, I'm telling you I there was no feelings involved in it for me. I know my mom was just like you go out there and you, you, you know, yeah, if they hit you, you hit them back, and if they insult you, you insult them back.
Mo Hamoudi :Yeah.
Karen Koehler:My mom was literally an eye for an eye parenting, and that's how I was raised, and so there are some negatives about that. There's also some positives when you get to lawyering, but one of the skills that I'm teaching my grandchildren yes, which my daughter and son-in-law let me do is I teach them that the comeback so we insult each other intentionally it all involves poop and farts.
Mo Hamoudi :I know I've seen these videos.
Karen Koehler:They're hilarious it's like you're a poopy. No, yeah, I'm poopy, you're a poopy farter. Your face farts, your eyes fart, your nose farts, your belly button farts. You just look like a fart, I mean, and we are like and they're laughing and we're all laughing. And then then christina will say, okay, that's enough, you've been doing it for half an hour. Uh, but that quick comeback without even thinking about it. It doesn't have to be just insults, but that's the easy one.
Mo Hamoudi :Farts and poop, yeah, um but it's also that you you're leaving out. It's not just you two having conversations, there's also oh yeah, there's like a lot of that being tossed back between the grandkids. There's two against one.
Mike Todd:There's sophie liam and me yeah and it's so fun.
Karen Koehler:It's so fun, it's so fun, but it's actually skill building.
Mo Hamoudi :It is.
Karen Koehler:To be able to have a quick comeback, not necessarily for the insult. I'm not going to teach them that Christina and Sol are not going to. Let me teach them that you should take an insult and go back and insult them back. Or if they hit you, you're going to hit them back. They're not going to teach the way that I was taught, but there's some interesting good things about it that I can take out. And then you, yeah, you yeah, I mean this is we're starting at the origins.
Karen Koehler:The kid part. Yes, what was the original way to deal with it? Because, okay, one more thing when you're especially as a child for me. I was taken aback Like that's mean. That hurts my feelings.
Mo Hamoudi :Yeah.
Karen Koehler:And I don't you know, you're kind of puzzled Like what?
Mo Hamoudi :am I supposed to do?
Karen Koehler:Yeah, because you're a blank slate.
Mo Hamoudi :Yeah.
Karen Koehler:Me. I run to my mom. She says insult him back, punch him. I'm like okay, and then so. So the instinct for me that was developed as a child was to depersonalize the insult and look at the person that's doing the insulting as the vermin. Like that's just a vermin, I'm going to go get them. It is a form of self-preservation, because you're not thinking, oh, there's a lot of merit to this.
Mo Hamoudi :Yeah.
Karen Koehler:You're thinking well, that's a vermin and I'm gonna go after them. I still do it to this day by the way but let's talk about that was me.
Mo Hamoudi :What about you, mike? What about you? How did you do?
Mike Todd:because most stalling uh, yeah, I was gonna say for me, um, this it always goes back to this one instance, but that's kind of a combination of more than one time, but it was around second or third grade. I want to say second grade. We just moved to Edmonds well, more like kind of in between Woodway area, and we lived in a like at the end of a dead end street, dead end private road essentially, and there were three houses that were along our road and there was one house that was kind of where, I think, where the original road was, house that was kind of where, I think, where the original road was. And, uh, the memory that I have is getting in a fight with three of the other boys who were from the house next door. I was in second grade, I think one of them was in fourth grade, the other was in fifth grade, the other was in seventh or eighth grade.
Mike Todd:Um, they used to tease me all the time different I can't remember specific things that they called me, but they would tease me. Often it was they would say I remember them saying sexual stuff that I didn't know what it was, and teasing me because I didn't know what those things were or because I was smaller than them or because they thought I was dumber than them, or something like that. So one day they were taunting me outside my house and they started pushing me and knocking me down to the ground and all kind of like surrounding me and beating me up. And my dad came out and they all kind of stopped for a second. He was like what's going on? He came up to me. He's like you can't let them, you have to kick the shit out of them. Yeah, I mean, I don't think he said it that way, but basically, you got to fight yeah, and I'm.
Mike Todd:You know, I'm pretty small at this time.
Karen Koehler:It's three against a woman. We had the same parent. What's that? We had the same parent, yeah.
Mike Todd:But the thing is for me is my dad wasn't a fighter. He wanted me to be a fighter.
Karen Koehler:But he wasn't a fighter. But he wasn't a fighter. Yeah.
Mike Todd:He was a small guy.
Karen Koehler:So he didn't, he didn't, he didn't, he didn't defend me, chase him off.
Mike Todd:No, I got the shit kicked out of me while he stood there and watched.
Karen Koehler:Oh, my God.
Mike Todd:That's one of my earliest, earliest memories of when my parents did something where I was like how could you do this to me?
Karen Koehler:My bad mom looks like a good mom compared to your dad. No offense but, yeah, I mean, that chills, just even imagining that.
Mo Hamoudi :That's terrible.
Karen Koehler:It's horrible.
Mike Todd:And you know, it's not that my dad is a horrible person. He's done better things. But that was an early memory of like you know and I didn't. It's not like I ended up broken or anything like that, but I got beat up and defeated by three other people when I was really small and I couldn't defend myself because it was overwhelming. A normal person might have in that situation might have said you get to fight one at a time, or something like that you didn't do any of that.
Mike Todd:I just got the kicked out of me, um, and that was when I learned that you to fight as hard as you can whenever they're doing that.
Karen Koehler:And that's what I've done ever since then.
Mo Hamoudi :Really, until I got done, fighting Until you got done fighting.
Mike Todd:That's when you realize that, no matter how much you want to fight them, you have to just stand above it.
Mo Hamoudi :But the event really shaped how you dealt with conflict.
Mike Todd:What it did, more than anything else, was make me always project.
Karen Koehler:Rage.
Mike Todd:Rage Interesting.
Karen Koehler:So when did you get that? When did it? I mean, how long did that last for?
Mike Todd:Still today.
Karen Koehler:Okay Well.
Mike Todd:I mean and I'm not saying that I always like. There were plenty of times when I was, when I was in high school, I got beat up by bigger guys in football. I mean it's always been something, but the thing about it is is that you don't stop fighting.
Mo Hamoudi :That's right. What's interesting is is that when you have this air about you like you don't bullshit, you're not a bullshit guy and you're not a guy you screw around with, but you get that sense. Even though I were.
Mike Todd:Which is what I've always thought was funny, because my dad, like I, can remember my dad when he was older and I'm living here in seattle telling me like when I used to play, uh, pioneer square was like during the 90s, was kind of like the hub of a lot of the music scene in seattle and they had.
Mike Todd:All the clubs were kind of together you could pay one one entry fee and you could go to like six or seven clubs. One of his friends was down in the Pioneer Square area and had gotten mugged Like a couple guys came up behind him and his wife hit him in the back of the head, knocked him out, took their stuff and left. He told me this like you're down there all the time, you got to be careful. Let me tell you I've only been in two I physical interactions with anyone on the street when I was walking that were uninvited. People don't do that to me and it's always been that way. I'm not the biggest guy.
Mike Todd:No you have a presence.
Mo Hamoudi :I am yeah.
Mike Todd:But I'm also not afraid I mean when I come out, I protect people, like that's what it's done to me. Yeah, is that I want to protect my friends always?
Karen Koehler:so, yeah, if somebody was gonna attack you guys, I'd go right in front, no matter how many people it is when you, when you went back and told us a story about that really kind of the hallmark incident for you, I I mean, how did that make you feel?
Mike Todd:Oh, every time I think about it it makes me I mean, it's one of the reasons that I have had problems with my father my entire life. You know, it's like I can. You know, like I said, I'm a visual person. I can still see that I can. Right now, while I'm talking to you guys, I can see it in my head.
Mo Hamoudi :Yeah.
Mike Todd:And it's always there. I mean, I don't think about it that much anymore, but, god, I used to a lot when I was younger. It was always in my head, you know, and then I didn't ever really think about what it did to me until I was much, much, much older and like that's when I started diffusing myself a little bit. Yeah, you know, took a long time. It's also knowing those situations where you, even though it seems like something that you got to do, you don't do anything like verbal ones that you're talking about. Karen, I don't fight that way as much, because often as much often it's not, yeah, it's true, but it's like raising it to physical. I don't do that unless somebody else starts that.
Mike Todd:Like you don't ever be the one that starts it.
Mo Hamoudi :Don't throw the first punch, yeah.
Mike Todd:Especially because I know I can take a punch from pretty much anyone. I took pretty hard pretty hard ones.
Mo Hamoudi :All right, maybe not ufc boxers or something like that. But yeah, yeah all right you gotta go back.
Mike Todd:I mean I know you're gonna be worse than mine. It's not gonna be worse than yours, man.
Mo Hamoudi :I mean that's pretty. That's tough seeing you, seeing your dad do that. Just stand by and watch for me. You know, coming you got to understand like I immigrated here. So it was like a lot of the challenges I faced were cultural, like trying to figure out how to speak the language, trying to fit in. So I got made fun of because I was just different. Immediately out of the gates I was made fun of and the first place we lived was in Parolin, texas, which was a suburb of Houston, which is a very conservative suburb of Houston, and I was there in that school, elementary school, and they wanted me to learn the national anthem. I wanted to learn it in my broken accent and then I come into class and trying to recite it and then try. Then they asked me to do the Texas State anthem and I couldn't do it and I remember all the kids making fun of me and so in, in contrast to like going home and tell, I never told anybody okay, but wait.
Karen Koehler:But you know general, I mean a perfect, make it personal, tell us I mean that was personal.
Mo Hamoudi :I mean it was personal that give us, give us an example uh, you know, gosh, there's so many like any of the just traditional things you would say to somebody from the Middle. East who can't speak English. That well, I kind of don't want to say them. I mean, they're, they're, they're really, really hurtful.
Karen Koehler:Yeah, so they were racial yeah.
Mo Hamoudi :They were racial. They were, you know, language focused, culture focused, intelligence, intelligence focused.
Karen Koehler:And so just you know, I mean, I just wanted yeah.
Mo Hamoudi :And and so I think that I think that for me it was like I never like went home and I said what do I do, mom, like like nobody was there. You know, I just swallowed it either I swallowed it.
Karen Koehler:Okay, there we go.
Mo Hamoudi :I swallowed it and then hoping that.
Karen Koehler:I was hoping that you're hoping one of us would say some diversity in response like fight, swallow yeah.
Mo Hamoudi :I mean, I took it and then what I did was I was like I got to change. I got to learn the language, I got to lose my culture, otherwise this is never going to stop Like I have to change. So I went and worked very hard to learn the language. I went and worked very hard to lose the accent.
Karen Koehler:I know you sound like you're from Brooklyn.
Mo Hamoudi :I we're very hard to lose the accent. I know you sound like you're from Brooklyn, I know.
Mike Todd:But it's just like it's better than sounding like you're from Texas.
Mo Hamoudi :Yeah, it's better than that, but it's that kind of stuff. You got to just do it because I adapted. But I will say this With me that's how I am, but when it came to watching other people get insulted, I'm a totally different person.
Karen Koehler:I didn't ask about that and I, and I want to ask you yes, because we're going to go on to like how this is developed yeah. I've stayed pretty similar, mike stayed pretty similar. Do you still swallow all the insults?
Mo Hamoudi :I think I'm very much. I laugh at myself. It's easy for me to laugh at myself.
Karen Koehler:See, I don't think so. I think that you're being too light here.
Mo Hamoudi :I know I'm being too light here, because I think, because I don't want to talk about this, because I believe this is not comfortable.
Karen Koehler:I believe that if you've been insulted, who's going to come out? Ruthless Mo, mo comes out. Ruthless mo, he does come out. I mean, if I was to say something rude to you, I mean seriously rude to you, like mo, you know, you just aren't all that. What you're going to do is you're going to you potentially may not come at me right then.
Mo Hamoudi :No.
Karen Koehler:But you will and you won't swallow it. You might close your mouth. Yes, and hold it in there, but you're not going to swallow it, no, and then you're going to figure out how to destroy me I mean, destroy is a big word.
Mo Hamoudi :Uh, I don't know about destroy, but I will say this he's vengeful I, I, I, what I. If it depends, okay, okay, all right. This this is honestly very uncomfortable for me to talk about. Okay, but I will talk about it. Okay, but you don't have to. It depends on the person. No, hold on, but it depends on the person.
Karen Koehler:I don't want to cross any lines.
Mo Hamoudi :You're not crossing any lines. Well, I am crossing lines. Well, you're not, but you have to agree to it. Agree to it. Are you agreeing to this topic? I'm agreeing to this topic. Yeah, I just want to make sure here. Yes, I do agree to talk about it, but it depends on the person.
Karen Koehler:If the if you karen, you karen threw an insult at me, which I do all the time, all the time, all the time, it's that our relationship is such that I don't become that person I don't intentionally insult you, no Well, sometimes it's just to get a rise out of you.
Mo Hamoudi :But part of like being insulted by somebody who you trust is different than being insulted by somebody who's just a bully.
Karen Koehler:If you trust them, they're not insulting you for the sake of insulting. I'm only talking about when you are being insulted. But, the intent is to insult you, and that's the topic of today. So I've never insulted you with the intent of demeaning you.
Karen Koehler:No, but many people do. So we're going to move forward out of our childhood and just talk about some instances of being insulted, and for me, I'm going to talk about being insulted as a lawyer, what that looks like. How many people have done it? Countless, yeah, countless people have insulted me, um, and there's always a way to get them back um, either immediately. There's it's the rare occasion when I won't insult back, but there's times that I will, specifically when I'm in lawyer mode because the best interest of my client has to come as number one.
Karen Koehler:So I may take that insult and think I'm not going to respond to it right now, because I think I can use this in the future and this is what I'm going to do with it and I've done that before. Like a lawyer insults me, maybe on the record, so I now have an exhibit that I can use in a motion in the future with a judge. I've done that. But normally if we are getting into it, I will handle it right then and there. But if I'm on the record, I got to do it in a way that doesn't look like I just punched them in the face. If I'm on the record, I got to do it in a way that doesn't look like I just punched them in the face. So, for example, one of the and I also use people that are going to insult me. I will use that to my advantage, I will just let it.
Karen Koehler:So here's an example You're in deposition against a defendant or a witness, or an expert who is just looking at this little girl lawyer in front of them, yeah and going. So the expert I'm gonna. Often one of the best roles that I can play is guess what, my little, guess what. The dumb little girl lawyer, what really? I Really Can you please explain? I don't understand. And they will just go and they will let their guard down and they're talking down to the little girl lawyer thinking like, oh my God, she's so dumb and I can play that role all day long.
Mike Todd:And they don't even see it when you stab them look at how old I am.
Mo Hamoudi :They still, I still do it you do do this, you do it all the time and a lot of time.
Karen Koehler:I'm doing it because I want to do something in trial with it. I don't. I'm you'll never see me break the character through the whole deposition yeah and there's other times when it's just a moment in time I just want to do yeah, but everyone's going to fall for that and there's a lot of insults that go along with that.
Mo Hamoudi :There is, yeah, you know.
Mike Todd:Well, don't you think your skin has thickened over the years that make it easier to ignore that stuff, so that you can play the longer game of getting them back?
Karen Koehler:Well, so the thing is my skin. I don't know that how thick my skin is, but it's the way that I've always. They're the vermin. Like they're vermin, I don't care, they can say whatever they want. Now, sometimes they'll pierce me, like the guy that said no wonder you're getting divorced, no wonder your husband's divorced. That pierced me at the moment for a minute until I was able to reframe it as the vermin and then go. But I don't really have I don't know how much thick skin it is versus. Maybe that's how I have the thick skin. Is I reframe it?
Mike Todd:That's my point. Like, over time, you learn. I guess where I'm going with it is. What you described is the same thing that I do a lot of times. In these situations, the play dumb thing works really well, because people get themselves diffused and think that they're superior, but you don't react for a long time. You keep that facade up and then when they don't realize it, they're already defeated. But I think that's what I was talking about. As I got older, I stopped. I mean, in my mind I was reacting quickly, but I didn't manifest that reaction. I just kept it inside and then file it away. One of the therapists that I had said that people like me he's like you have a list, don't you and it goes back to when I was a kid of people that I would like to get back, of people that I would like to get back, and so you know and I'll give you a turnaround.
Karen Koehler:But my mother did not teach me the strategy. She just said go back and sock him or go back and insult him. And in fact in her life that's kind of how she was. She was not as thoughtful, it was her habit. For me, I'm very strategic, so and in the moment I'm willing to be there in the moment to see it how it happens.
Karen Koehler:I don't hold a grudge, like Mo. He's got like a list. You have a list. I'm only going to hold it for as long as I need it, specifically for law. Most other people. I don't want to hold any negative, I'm just one of those people. I just don't want it in my body. I don't want to hold a grudge against anybody, I just want to let it go. But in law, where you're in warfare, I'm holding on to it and waiting.
Karen Koehler:And there's a couple people that have insulted me. You know publicly like they talk about you behind your back. You find out and that you have to hold on to because they didn't insult you to your face and so you weren't able to like, go back and you have to figure out like, like, how am I going to eventually be able to address this with them. I also believe heavily in karma, that they're going to get their own, so I don't have to be the executioner of, you know, neutralizing the insult, or the vermin, as I call it. So I'm pretty strategic about it and pretty passionless to a lot of the time. A lot of the time I'm pretty passionless, it's the people that talk about me behind my back that I can't get at, yet that I'm more passionately upset about. Look at Mo laughing at me.
Mo Hamoudi :I'm not laughing, I'm smiling.
Karen Koehler:What do you think?
Mo Hamoudi :Well, I don't have a list. I do not have a list. I do have a tattoo, and my tattoo reflects how I deal with not only the insults, but by the adversity of life, because to me, these experiences are just adversities. Exactly what it says, and I got it a very long, long time ago, decades ago and to me, I think that it's how I use my time in response to what is being done to me that will ultimately be my vengeance. It's not like getting somebody back.
Mo Hamoudi :I really do believe in karma. I think that people who are unkind are going to experience unkind things in their lives and they're going to experience, they're going to bring in things into their lives that's going to cause them a great deal of consternation. I think that people who are kind are going to have the opposite experiences, and you know, there was a person I don't want to identify them but that did something incredibly harmful to you yeah and um, and I remember them being talking to me and and and me having the opportunity, in like a very mature place, to respond to what they had done.
Mo Hamoudi :I remember saying something to them and I remember, as I said it to them, terrified them Like I could see that, like their eyes got terrified.
Karen Koehler:I said that Wait, you got to do the ruthless mo, it wasn't ruthless mo.
Mo Hamoudi :It was a very calm. Calm, relaxed kind of direct. I said you know, um, at some point you're going to come to the end of your life and you're going to be laying there and your life is going to be coming to its natural end and at that point you are start, you're going to start to have memories and your life is going to flash in front of your eyes and you're going to remember this conversation. What I'm going to tell you right now will happen. The shadows are going to come and visit you to this world is going to come, visit you and is going to place a terror into your heart as you breathe your last breath.
Mike Todd:It's a pretty good one.
Mo Hamoudi :And that is what is going to happen to you. And I got up and I walked away and as I looked them in the eye, they realized that, as if I spoke to them, like I was in touch with some heavenly spirit, that I was able to summon that spirit to say that to them Because in my heart I knew that to be so true. That's my vengeance Time. Time always will solve all things.
Mike Todd:So that's what I believe. It's funny that you say that this is an uplifting well you said.
Mo Hamoudi :I was like this is uncomfortable, but I'm gonna give it to you, okay, you?
Mike Todd:guys want to know. Well, yeah, no, was going to say it's interesting, because time is my vengeance. It's a good one, I guess, on my side. For that. I never did get this tattoo, but I did some research at one time about the Todd family crest and the Todd motto.
Mo Hamoudi :Yeah.
Mike Todd:The Todd motto is it behooves us to live and it's always been something that like. When I read that I thought was very interesting, because I've always had that drive to survive, no matter how badly I was treated or how bad I felt or you know that kind of thing, and there've been times where I've been in very dark places that I've still made it out of because of that. Yeah, I didn't learn that phrase until recently.
Mike Todd:I mean this was like. When I got my last tattoo was when I was thinking about this and I was like, oh, I wonder if there's this. And I look back and I saw this thing and I was like, oh, that's kind of cool, there's this. And I look back and I saw this thing and I was like, oh, that's kind of cool. This thing's kind of cool because you know where, where the name came from and stuff like that all brings up. It's like I get something that has meaning yeah, um, and that's where I found that phrase. Uh, but it's similar, I feel. It's like the, the yin to the yang of your statement.
Mo Hamoudi :Yes, yes, yes.
Karen Koehler:Well, I mean, this is not a self-help program. I can't help us be any better at getting in.
Mike Todd:We're not finding solutions. We're not finding solutions.
Karen Koehler:There's no solutions here If you guys are waiting until the end of this program to hear the top 10 list of how to deal with insults.
Mo Hamoudi :No.
Mike Todd:No, you're only going to hear our discussion you're only going to hear fight them or flight them either swallow that's right, that's right all right, thank you okay.
