The Velvet Hammer™ Podcast

When Zoom Replaces Rooms – Navigating the Post-Pandemic Legal Practice

• Karen Koehler and Mo Hamoudi • Season 5 • Episode 38

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Episode 38: When Zoom Replaces Rooms – Navigating the Post-Pandemic Legal Practice

Karen Koehler, Mo Hamoudi, and Mike Todd tackle one of the most significant shifts in the aftermath of the COVID-19 pandemic: the rise of remote everything. From depositions to jury selection to everyday office life, they unpack how the legal world changed when the world shut down. 

Mo misses the energy of a bustling office, the conversations, the connection, and the shared purpose that only happen in person. Karen values the flexibility and efficiency of remote work, especially for routine legal tasks like depositions. Together, they explore how this shift reshaped trials, teams, office culture, and leadership, and what it means for the human side of law. Their verdict? The jury’s still out. 

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Hosted by Karen Koehler and Mo Hamoudi, trial lawyers at Stritmatter Law, a nationally recognized plaintiff personal injury and civil rights law firm based in Washington State.

Produced by Mike Todd, Audio & Video Engineer, and Kassie Slugić, Executive Producer.

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Mike Todd:

Okay, here we go Pros and cons of working remotely, yeah.

Mo Hamoudi :

I don't like it. I really don't. This is okay, I'm going to be the one that's going to be. People are going to hate me for saying this. Well, not everyone. Well, I mean just the whole thing like the pandemic was serious and people had to stay home for a while, but now it's like everybody now had to stay home for a while, but now it's like everybody now wants to stay home. Like everything is zoom, this, zoom, that court work and and and I'm done with it. I don't, I'm done with it. I'm done with it.

Karen Koehler :

You want to deal with the traffic every day no, I want to see human beings.

Mo Hamoudi :

I want to see the hustle and bustle, the moving, the interaction. You've got the New.

Mike Todd:

York, in you there, yeah.

Mo Hamoudi :

I want the people. I want the people. What is this? Everybody's in the Zooms. I don't like it. I'm done with it, Karen.

Karen Koehler :

You're anti-Zoom.

Mo Hamoudi :

No, you know what. Liquidate all the real estate. Just make gardens, get rid of everything. Just make gardens. And you know, let's start drilling for oil down at Pioneer Square. You're spinning out, mo, I am spinning out. Okay, I'll unspin. Okay, what do you got? What do you got? What do you got? Because you're a virtual everything.

Karen Koehler :

I went to my first in-person deposition last Friday.

Mo Hamoudi :

Hallelujah. I was so happy that that happened to you, because you're so against them.

Karen Koehler :

I put my backpack on. I walked from my house to the Columbia Center.

Mo Hamoudi :

Yes.

Karen Koehler :

I got to the elevator. I needed to get to the 20th floor, which was the lowest elevator bank that you could get almost in that building. I hit the button, I got building. I hit the button, I got inside, I hit the button and nothing happened. A guy got in and I said these are locked, aren't they? He said yep, so I went up to his floor, which was 21. Then I drove back down to zero and I got out. When I got out, there came Levi Bendeley, one of the defense lawyers and his client. Also, there was one of the interpreters.

Mo Hamoudi :

Yeah.

Karen Koehler :

And everyone was looking around. They had tried to talk to the information desk, but they couldn't figure it out. I then called Kristen and said we can't get up, you need to tell them to come down and get us. So we sat there talking me involuntarily, because you're having to make chit-chat with people that you don't really want to talk to. And then finally the person comes down and she says oh, I'm so sorry, and I'm looking at her like you guys wanted this in person at this office, which they did. They insisted have to be in person. She then put us in the elevator.

Karen Koehler :

We went back up to the 20th floor. We got there and it's a lockout room and she said okay, the bathrooms are in here, but you can't come out of this room, into this floor for any other reason, because there was no staff on site. The staff aren't there, so they can't unlock. You know they can't push the unlock the door button when you need to get out of that room. So we then unlocked that door so we could get inside into the empty reception area with no staff, and then we went back to the deposition room, where people were still set it up. In fact, the court reporter wasn't there. Yet we would learn later that she couldn't find parking and was very razzled, frazzled.

Karen Koehler :

We then get in there and I'm like well, where's the water? Where's a water pitcher. So one of them says, oh, you need water. I said yep. So she goes and gets a water pitcher one of the lawyers and bring some paper cups. Um, all of us get water, so there's no more water. So then she has to go get another pitcher of water. Meanwhile the court reporters come in. One of the interpreters came up with us, the other one still not there. The video guy can't quite figure out whatever this and that that A second interpreter shows up. We're now all in there. I'm at the other end because it's the witnesses at the end, and then there's two interpreters, her lawyer and then they have me at the end of the table by the videographer. On the other side is Janae, and I forgot the name of the other attorney from the city.

Mike Todd:

Hold on. Why are there two interpreters?

Karen Koehler :

Because they have to pass off every 15 minutes.

Mo Hamoudi :

Oh, okay, yeah.

Karen Koehler :

And I don't know where they come from, because when you get a court interpreter or interpreter you have to pick from an approved pool up and down the West Coast. So it's 20 minutes late by the time we start the deposition. Corp reporter is very frazzled. She came in late. They like to normally get there 15 minutes behind. She stops the deposition after about five minutes and says I can't hear because she's underneath a blowy thing that's making a whole lot of noise and she can't hear enough. So that is how we start the deposition.

Mo Hamoudi :

And what are your thoughts about all this?

Karen Koehler :

This is ridiculous.

Mo Hamoudi :

Ridiculous. Why is it ridiculous?

Karen Koehler :

No, no, here's my thoughts on depositions. Number one I normally do my clients, the defendant and key people that I want to do because I'm going to do them in trial and I want to check them out. So it was never a question if I would go do this. I was here and I went and did it. My second thought is I'm never doing this when I'm in Hawaii and New York. I won't be here, so I'm not going to do it. They're going to have to let me attend by Zoom or Mo's going to do it, I'm not going to do it, or Mo's going to do it. I'm not going to do it.

Karen Koehler :

Number three this stupid waste of time. I think I and, by the way, while this is going on, I'm like Instagramming. I had the art on the really bad art, by the way ugly art on the walls of the city attorney's office. I went to the bathroom, I drank some water, I walked up and down the halls, I looked at the view, which was okay, but they had these shades down. I took some pictures on my Instagram. I was just like this is the stupidest thing to come here and be in person and do a deposition.

Karen Koehler :

I don't know if you read it it was an ongoing commentary about how dumb this all was. And then I came back and I was a good girl and I attended the deposition. But my thoughts are it it's just as good to attend a deposition by Zoom. And the reason why I resent being in person is because of the resources it takes for people to attend a deposition by Zoom by in person. All of us had to. I walked, but everyone else had to figure out how to park and it's like $50 or $60 a day at Columbia Center and not much less for two or three in this case four hours. It's just a waste. It's a waste of time for a deposition to not be by zoom also kill me now. But by zoom you have to have everything electronic, so it all goes up there like the exhibits. They were handing out freaking pieces of paper. Mike's laughing because he knows like I'm allergic to paper.

Mike Todd:

I don't want to touch it, not just that it's not just you that, like you know, these days it amazes me when people do stuff like that. I mean, unless you're giving them something that they need to write something on during the deposition, there's no reason for that.

Karen Koehler :

But you can still have them do it on Zoom.

Mike Todd:

Oh yeah, you can still do it that way on Zoom.

Karen Koehler :

And then you know, there's a videographer too right. There's a court reporter, and they still do it that way on Zoom.

Mike Todd:

And then there's a videographer, too right, there's a court reporter and instead of a Zoomer you can push the button. Yeah, the court reporter is an AI program that does a transcript and you're videoing everything already.

Karen Koehler :

Well in Zoom, in all fairness, we still have to have a court reporter.

Mike Todd:

Oh, you do, Because the court requires it.

Karen Koehler :

I don't know how long that union is going to keep going.

Mike Todd:

That won't be for that much longer though.

Karen Koehler :

The corporate union is strong, but they're going to be in real trouble.

Mike Todd:

Oh yeah, they're not going to be able to survive it.

Karen Koehler :

So look at Mosman. I think that that's different than what it feels like in the office. I do agree that not having a vibrant office is kind of sad and I also agree that when you work from home your world gets smaller. I do, I think so. I think that I think that it gets smaller because you're not walking on the streets or seeing other people or you're not just bumping into people. You don't have any kind of vitality in your house. That's similar to a work, vitality with different cultures and diversity of people and backgrounds and thoughts and types, and it's more colorful to.

Karen Koehler :

You know, I don't want there's extremes where people don't ever leave their house. Especially, you know there's been a lot of documentaries in Japan where people literally don't leave their house for years, or very much at all. They've given up on being in a family because they don't even want one. It's all video, so there's everything in between. I've also been practicing a lot for 40 years and I live in New York, hawaii and Seattle. So for me I don't I'm not going to be in the office, but I wouldn't even if there was no, had been no pandemic, like that's a natural privilege of being able to be old.

Mike Todd:

Here's my question Before the pandemic, even before that, let's say when I first met you, 2006,. If you had the technology to do it, then would you have wanted to do every deposition by video?

Karen Koehler :

No.

Mike Todd:

Why.

Karen Koehler :

Because I was told that it was really important. You needed to intimidate people in person or view them in person. There was a little bit lost. I will admit what I noticed because she was speaking in Mandarin and it was being translated. I do not speak Mandarin, but she also could speak some English, so it was in there. I was literally when I went to talk, because I also questioned her for about an hour. I do what I normally do, like in trial. I'm super. I don't know she's speaking a foreign language and I am zoomed in on her and I'm blinking because I'm watching all of her movements. I'm feeling her energy, I'm sensing all that.

Mike Todd:

Do you think that you would have been able to get that from a zoom meeting.

Karen Koehler :

Not as well, but very still very well.

Mike Todd:

Um, not as well, and I guess my question is you've you've done trials since the pandemic and had to do zoom depositions and then see them live in the trial?

Karen Koehler :

And I've done Zoom, witnesses live.

Mike Todd:

Yeah, in the trial as well.

Karen Koehler :

And live witnesses.

Mike Todd:

I guess when you get the chance to deal with them in a live setting, is it a negative that you hadn't done that during the deposition, or are you able to sort of slide back into it that way?

Karen Koehler :

Oh yeah, it's no negative, it doesn't impact at all. Okay, yeah, to me you know I can go on and on about the depositions and stuff Like I like the fact that courts have hearings by Zoom, because a lot of times you're waiting otherwise for hours and you're only going to talk to the judge for five minutes.

Mike Todd:

Well, and it used to be that you'd have to have the client there and you'd have to have everybody there while you guys just went through you know kind of administrative parts of the of the trial, yeah, um. So I think you're right in that one. Like that kind of stuff should be.

Karen Koehler :

But I would say this and the pandemic fundamentally changed how the office was, for the negative, I mean, we had social we still do. It's still there. I'm not trying to say that like a negative, but that's everywhere. Now it's different, it's not just our office, but it was pretty negative there for a little bit because people weren't talking to each other. People were emailing and texting and Teamsing each other and even though we had Teams, very few people actually used Teams. The video feature of Teams.

Mike Todd:

It's like high school, where it pulled everybody back into their little clicks.

Karen Koehler :

It really did.

Mike Todd:

And it was even worse because in a high school setting, those clicks still interacted with each other. But when it came to this, nobody was like. All of a sudden, everyone was in their bubbles as they were calling it.

Karen Koehler :

I haven't completely come out of it. We have a coach and that helped a lot, and we're supposed to all be here on Wednesdays. Today's Wednesday.

Mike Todd:

Yeah, it doesn't always happen.

Karen Koehler :

It doesn't always happen. Friday there's very few people here, monday a little bit. Oh, the summer's been dead.

Mike Todd:

I mean there were a few weeks there where it was just Shelly and I pretty much, or maybe the interns Jane was here sometimes.

Karen Koehler :

Yeah.

Mike Todd:

Jane, but most of you know a couple paralegals here and there during the week, but there were a couple weeks or a few weeks there where it was seemed like there were. You know, we were turning on the lights upstairs almost for no reason yeah, all right, well, well I mean what you described about your journey and adventure.

Mo Hamoudi :

Going into a in-person deposition, I could hear the violin playing in my ear and I was just sort of like playing the violin and I was just like playing it slowly, as you were saying it.

Karen Koehler :

He's insulting me.

Mo Hamoudi :

And I was like playing that. But the thing I was thinking about immediately was like I was like, you know, I have had an experience just like that. I remember friends of mine said you know, meet us downtown and let's go grab something to eat.

Mike Todd:

And I remember, in New York here in the city.

Mo Hamoudi :

And I left and I and I went and took a bus downtown and there was all of these people on there and they some were, you know, had odors, some didn't, and it was really crowded and I was sweating and I got out of the bus and I got out of the bus and I had to go find a place, find a restaurant. They couldn't find parking. It was just an utter mess. And then finally, we got to the restaurant and the table wasn't—we didn't even have a table. We had to go find another restaurant. We had to walk in the crowd and the sidewalks, go find another restaurants and we ended up spending about an hour and a half trying to find a place to eat.

Mo Hamoudi :

And then, finally, we found a place to eat and the food wasn't even really that good and we hung out together and we went home and I thought all the resources and time we spent doing that we could have Uber Eats did and sat at my house and I could have gotten on my zoom and them on their zoom and we could have just gotten a meal done. Like that. I look the. That's the fun. What you described as like annoying, I think, is like that's like forces you to like get involved and get connected you don't sound like you had a lot of fun.

Karen Koehler :

No, but I did.

Mo Hamoudi :

But like I do that, I won't do it. I'm like this is like what I'm doing. Satire is what I'm. My story presents a satire example of what you're describing and this is why I have the violin. But when you don't go to court, okay, why the hell do you have courts? It's the majesty of the court. It's going into the courtroom.

Karen Koehler :

I still like to be in court in person, but for the good stuff, Well there's no good bad stuff. Yes, there is Trial dispositive motion.

Mo Hamoudi :

No, when you force lawyers into a courtroom, you force them to say how much does this case matter that I'm going to take time out of my day to show up? You're making it so convenient for people to just sort of like from their bedrooms, just to sort of hop on and dial it in. I just don't think. And then people are complaining about like heavily relying on AI and stuff, which is fine, but people want the convenience because they don't want to get up and do things. I think it promotes laziness, I think it promotes apathy, I think it promotes mediocrity. It takes the surprise out of the day, the fact that you went out and saw a piece of art that impressed you Well, it impressed you enough to put it on your Instagram. And at the same time, there was a little that position was spicy. Got in there, you were getting at each other. There was a little. That position was spicy Got in there, you were getting at each other. It was a little fun.

Karen Koehler :

It's always going to be spicy with me.

Mo Hamoudi :

Not on Zoom, it's not the same.

Karen Koehler :

There's like a break.

Mike Todd:

I've seen a few on Zoom that were spicy.

Karen Koehler :

Well, okay.

Mo Hamoudi :

Okay, I'll put the violin away.

Karen Koehler :

Well, or whatever I would say. You know, know the last. It wasn't maybe the last trial, but there's a trial that I did last year where the judge um changed some of the dates and said and said, well, we're gonna do the voir dire selection of the jury by zoom and we're gonna do the pre-trial conference on such and such a date.

Mike Todd:

Let me stop you right there Is, voir dire harder on zoo.

Karen Koehler :

Well, that's a whole topic.

Mike Todd:

So we're going to have to save that one for another one. I'm sorry to interrupt, it's a whole topic.

Karen Koehler :

The short answer is yes.

Mike Todd:

Yes.

Karen Koehler :

But I've also come to like it. Okay, but I didn't at first, I couldn't figure it out Like but I didn't at first, I couldn't figure it out Like, how am I going to deal with?

Mike Todd:

this, it's very, because it was foreign right, it felt very weird.

Karen Koehler :

It's a very different process and you don't get to be in person with the people and sense them as well. But most importantly is it kind of destroys the group vibe, because when you're in person you can all talk at the same time. On Zoom they still haven't fixed technology, so it's only one person at a time, so you can't really kind of do it as more of a group yeah, because in voir dire you ask the whole group questions and like here, everybody raise your hand for this question and then people.

Karen Koehler :

Then you kind of start to whittle it down to who you want to talk to, talking kind of, yeah, they're saying yes, yes, and they can't do that.

Mike Todd:

now You've got to ask single questions directed at individuals. It's very hard.

Karen Koehler :

But I was in Hawaii, I thought I'm going to have to come home five days or so early for trial. After the judge laid down the new rules, I said I can do the first part in trial. So I did voir dire you mean in? Hawaii. Yes.

Mo Hamoudi :

I just literally, I was wearing shorts. I remember this you couldn't see my shorts no, but I remember you saying I'm gonna be in my shorts and I'm gonna do voir, dire I was, I was. That's what she did I was in my shorts.

Mike Todd:

Were you? Were you outside?

Karen Koehler :

no, I was, I was in my kitchen, in the house, in the kitchen and it was three hours early, so it was early, but that was okay and I had, I actually went. I actually, because I didn't decide to stay until after the judge. So I actually went to. Um, it's like I need to have something to put on top of my t-shirts, uh. So I went to. I can't remember.

Karen Koehler :

I think it was, oh yeah, down in lahaina yeah uh, which is outside where I live, there's a ross shop for less. I went to the ross and I just picked up some things that I would never ever wear in real life, but they looked fine on a camera. They were kind of like a sweater jacket, which was also a little bit too warm, but I mean, yeah, so that's what I did. I had these, I had two of them. I had a pink one and a cream one, and I alternated them because they were going to always be different jury panels and I had a great time picking that jury, no problem, but it took like three days.

Mike Todd:

Yeah, does it take longer now? It takes way longer.

Karen Koehler :

That's the negative.

Mo Hamoudi :

Yeah, I mean doing a voir dire in person is like putting on a school play.

Mike Todd:

Oh, totally.

Mo Hamoudi :

It is the funnest thing ever Because you get to meet the jury and they get to know you. I can't believe that's put on Zoom.

Karen Koehler :

Oh.

Mike Todd:

I like it, I don't like it at all. Well, I mean, I'm obviously not an attorney, so I've never been on your side of it, but I've been through, voir dire a couple times as a juror, yeah, and it would be a lot.

Mike Todd:

I mean, I haven't had to do it via Zoom Both times it's been in person. Yeah, and I don't know as a juror. It would be kind of weird, because hearing other people's reactions to the questions isn't the same if everyone's going to get checked one at a time. Yes, it's different when you're all in a big group and then, like, one person admits to it and then suddenly another person does.

Karen Koehler :

Well, you're still in a group. It's like 15 to 20 people at a time.

Mike Todd:

Yeah, and then suddenly another person does. Well, you're still in a group, it's like 15 to 20 people at a time.

Karen Koehler :

Yeah, but that's just.

Mike Todd:

I'm saying, I feel like it would be different, because each person's being directed at and you can't tell me that those other jurors aren't there in their kitchen going. Oh okay, I'm going to walk and get a soda.

Karen Koehler :

You also have a very detailed questionnaire that you fill out ahead of time that you've already gone through yeah, and that's even like what you're describing being in physical proximity.

Mo Hamoudi :

Yeah, I feel like you might get different answers.

Mike Todd:

Yeah, you said you've got a questionnaire that you fill out ahead of time. Then you sit down and they ask you certain questions. Yes, because of what you said before where when I was in a big group of people and somebody said something else, I went oh, wait a minute. Yeah, oh, you remember stuff that maybe you weren't going to remember when they asked that specific question. And I'm not saying that's everybody, but some people seem to do that people change their views in the middle of Wadir that's right, I saw, I hear it too.

Mike Todd:

Yeah, yeah, you know and and I think that that might be different I feel like there's a disconnect to people being on camera, where you guys, as professionals being on camera, you understand you got to hold yourself some way. But I mean, come on, karen, we saw one guy go to the bathroom one time.

Karen Koehler :

That would seem I mean there. That wasn't a deposition, but the reason I actually wrote letter saying we shouldn't do barter by zoom, you know when they were going to make the change permanent. But the reason that they made that change permanent is because they used to have about a 20 acceptance rate oh yeah and now it's like 80 oh I'm.

Mike Todd:

They get way more jurors now.

Karen Koehler :

They get way more jurors it is not as time effective, but it also like that's Each trial is between. In cases that we do, it's normally around Minimum is 60 or 70 jurors to 150. Like Ducks, it was 700. They have to get parking. You've got to marshal them around.

Mike Todd:

They got to go. You got to go hang out in a uncomfortable I don't care how nice the jury room is, it's never fun to sit in there, it's, you know, because I bit. The one that I was in last time was at the top of the building. It's really nice, had lots of room. You still feel like you're sitting and doing nothing, no matter how much you bring with you to and you get ten dollars distract yourself and you get paid almost nothing which does not even cover your parking.

Mike Todd:

Yeah, and and you can't find parking well, there's that too, I mean, or?

Mike Todd:

if you do, they're like well, you can park your street there, but there's a lot of crime, so you might want to make sure you don't leave anything in view and stuff like that. Like nobody wants to do that and and or you pay freaking 30 40 dollars for parking, like and that's if you can find an indoor space, like. I drove around that parking lot there several times trying to find spots. Yeah, um, it's not a fun thing to do until you get into the trial yeah, then it's.

Karen Koehler :

Then it's interesting they're weighing, they're weighing all that stuff. But you know, when you, I wish there had been zoom earlier. When I think about how much time I spent in my car, how many miles I put on my car. I crisscross the state constantly. I was always in a plane, uh, going to this or that place. In fact, same case with the city. You'd think the city would budget watch. We got a continuance on this case. It's a bicycle case of traumatic brain injury and he's getting treatment. He finished his first year and then decided to try to do anything he could to try to get any better and went. I don't know that this will work, but he went to this program in Florida and his parents went with him and the city's like well, we want to go take his deposition in Florida. I'm like, well, we continued, continued the trial and this program is only for two more months. Why can't you wait? Why would they want to go and take depositions of people that are from seattle?

Mike Todd:

because it costs a lot of money I'm just saying it's abusive. No, I know well, that's my point.

Karen Koehler :

Like it's, they're doing it as a ploy to mess with you well, I thought that they just wanted to go on vacation because they're city attorneys.

Mike Todd:

It could be that too. I don't know.

Karen Koehler :

But I mean yes.

Mike Todd:

What time of year was it?

Karen Koehler :

It's now. They just asked, like about a week ago, florida's not that nice right now. Why would they want to go take depositions in Florida?

Mo Hamoudi :

Well, I don't want to give you the strategic reason because I don't want to say the strategic reason.

Karen Koehler :

There's no strategic reason. There is absolutely a very strategic reason.

Mo Hamoudi :

There is a strategic reason.

Karen Koehler :

Who's?

Mo Hamoudi :

the better hit That'd be you Later. It's that look, if somebody's getting treatment in another state for injuries that you're being sued for, I want to go to where they're getting treatment and I want to see them in that environment, in that process and ask them some questions about their injuries. I think that demonstrates a certain chutzpah to go there and I think that it has strategic value. I don't think they want to go to Florida. I mean, they're in the. What is that area? It's where the-.

Karen Koehler :

They don't know where they are.

Mo Hamoudi :

It's the retirement fricking area of Florida. It's like-. Clearwater. Yeah, it's like it is hot, disgusting right now.

Karen Koehler :

I don't think they're not going for a vacation. These are not vacationers, these are not-. I don't think that they have the mental prowess to come up with that strategy.

Mo Hamoudi :

I think they just want to get on a plane and go. Karen, I think they do, but You've got three points of view.

Mike Todd:

I think they're doing it to mess with you. She thinks they want to go on vacation.

Karen Koehler :

Master plan? Definitely not a master plan.

Mo Hamoudi :

Who would want to go to Florida in August? Who the hell no?

Karen Koehler :

I don't know what I feel. Florida in August. They didn't want it set in August, they wanted.

Mo Hamoudi :

They didn't want it set in August, they wanted like August or September, but it's like, yeah, but who the hell would want to go? It is the worst time of year to go there. Yeah, thank you. It's still 100 degrees degrees in the humidity. No, it's true, I don't think so, but I think that I don't like your rule, karen.

Karen Koehler :

What rule? I don't have a rule.

Mo Hamoudi :

All depositions have to be on Zoom. I'm going to start to break that rule. I'm going to start taking my depositions in person. These rules, these rabid rules of ours.

Mike Todd:

I guess we're. I feel like we've gotten to where we can say some things are better, yeah, to be done on zoom. Now. Some things are better in person. Getting back to the office thing, I mean you know you went there with wasted space and and and real estate needing to be repurposed. I've thought that for a while. But I also feel like some positions, like my wife.

Mike Todd:

She works in payroll. When she was in the office, she spent all her time on the phone. When she's doing it now, she spends all her time on the phone. That doesn't matter where you are. When she was in the office, she spent all her time on the phone. When she's doing it now, she spends all her time on the phone. That doesn't matter where you are. Really.

Mike Todd:

I mean, she did interact with people a little bit more, but not that much. She was working on people's pay, listening to people complain about their paychecks, stuff like that, and that's the same thing that she does now. What I do think is weird is she almost can't go into the office. Now, what I do think is weird is she almost can't go into the office. Like they still have an office, but they've adjusted it in that they have like a couple group desks so you don't really have a workspace in the office and it makes it difficult for her to be able to be effective in her job, where now she's got it set up at our house, she can do everything that she needs to from her setup there.

Mike Todd:

But when she takes her laptop into work, like maybe maybe somebody's taking the docking station or it's not working or or there's people already at that thing so you can't use that desk and you've got to find somewhere else to sit down. I think that we're like many different things. We're in a big period of change that was caused by the pandemic and the technology that got pushed to make it possible for people to do the stuff that they do now working from home.

Mike Todd:

But figuring out how that works is still what's happening. I mean, you know, like, like Karen said, we we don't have. Most of the time there's not that many people in the office.

Mo Hamoudi :

Yeah.

Mike Todd:

I'd say down here it's Shelly and I are here at five days a week, so there's always somebody down here, but on the third floor sometimes there's just you and Darcy.

Mo Hamoudi :

I mean for several hours, For several hours. Well, you're the managing partner.

Karen Koehler :

And you've been a man. Well, I want to ask, I want to just add one more thing. You know we are also privileged.

Mo Hamoudi :

Oh yeah.

Karen Koehler :

Because when you talk to many people, they don't have a space in their house. And there's some people here that their space is not a.

Mike Todd:

You know it's not a large space, yeah, yeah, um. Or it's a temporary space they got to set up in their kitchen or something like that and I I have a.

Karen Koehler :

I have a thing where I don't want to have an office, although I I had an extra area, so I did make that area office area up there. Um but um and the when we built it, we asked people if they had input and every staff member asked for their own office. Because, we used to have a couple that were shared, so our whole office is individual offices. We don't have any common. You know, we're the opposite of your wife's situation.

Mike Todd:

So we are in a fairly privileged people could be coming into the office here yeah um, it's just that you know everyone.

Karen Koehler :

I think before the pandemic there were people who wanted to work from home well, we have some people that live an hour and a half away, yes, that live far away, and that kind of made sense for some of them to work from home even though there was pushback from the rest of the people yeah

Mike Todd:

who had to work in the office, but then then, when the pandemic happened, pretty much everybody left. We had a few people that were, you know, we had the receptionist and Ryan were here for a little while. Pretty much that were the only people here. Then I started coming in too, and then, you know, after a year and a half or whatever, you guys had to start to figure out the plan for how things were going to work. Again People slowly started coming in, but I don't necessarily think that all of the people that are working from home should be working from home.

Mike Todd:

Habits are hard to break, that's just my opinion and it's not necessarily just because I do have to work in the office all the time I think that some stuff has been lost because of that.

Karen Koehler :

Do you think that people I know that there is clicks Do you think that people rub along together better or worse in general?

Mike Todd:

Worse.

Karen Koehler :

And why do you think so?

Mike Todd:

I think it has to do with the in-person interaction. It's easier to be distant, less caring, I guess I would say I'm not trying to make it negative, but it's just apathy.

Mo Hamoudi :

Apathy yes.

Mike Todd:

I think that people don't, because you don't have the personal interaction as much now and it's not that everyone was like I mean, I don't have personal relationships with most people at work. It's just the person that I am, yeah, but I think that interacting with people on a daily basis is good for everyone, myself included, no matter how much I don't want to be around them.

Mo Hamoudi :

I will, you, but you, okay, you're the managing partner, so what ideas do you have? What thoughts do you have about addressing what he's saying? Which?

Karen Koehler :

I agree.

Mo Hamoudi :

Everything he just said I agree with Mike.

Karen Koehler :

So I'm in a position of when I started at the firm 21 years ago being a lawyer for way, way longer. You know, since I was a lawyer. I became a lawyer in 1985.

Mike Todd:

You started here in 2004?.

Karen Koehler :

Yes, and I was that person that was, so I also was a single parent, and so on the weeks that I had my kids, I would get in, whatever you know, sometime around eight, but I would leave.

Mike Todd:

Well, you lived pretty far from here too, I did?

Karen Koehler :

I live on the Sammamish Plateau Because of the traffic and because of when they were getting out of school. I needed to be able to get home by 3 through 34. I kept pushing it out a little bit but, yeah, my kids were Noel was still in elementary school when I started working here so and then I would keep working from home, but on the weeks when they weren't here I ended up buying. You know, I lived in Seattle and I was pretty much here and here always.

Mike Todd:

Well, for a while there you lived literally next door to the office. My kids were not happy with me.

Karen Koehler :

I lived in an apartment where I would get up and walk through the parking like half a block to the office.

Mike Todd:

No it wasn't even half a block it was like 100, 100 feet, uh, I, my view was of the parking which I will say has always been my dream, to be able to be that close to my work so I could just roll out of bed and be at work.

Karen Koehler :

I could be there in five minutes, um, but I was there always. I would go for a run, come back and then close up the office. You know, I I worked, I took the showers at the office because I would, you know, they were showers there. I could go take a shower after I ran. But so I was that person always in the office, always for the whole time, pretty much that we were in Seattle and then we moved to this building and I was still here quite a bit. It started changing, I think after Ride the Ducks, which would have been in about 2018, because I was always in the office. That's about when it started to change, and then, of course, the pandemic was in 2020. So that really changed. And then, just again, being older and living different places, I'm just gone more, but I got into it. So, on the one hand, I used to be of the mindset of I need to set the example, you know, lead by example, but I do believe that people need to be in the office and I'm not leading by example.

Mo Hamoudi :

Nope.

Karen Koehler :

Nor should I be required to. Yeah, I would say I think when you're 65, you get a pass.

Mike Todd:

Yeah well, when I first started here the senior attorneys they weren't here, like that's something that's always been. You know, doctors going to play golf or Brad going to play golf.

Karen Koehler :

Well, because, also because lawyers can have a really long career span into their 70s, and in our case we have some that are still working at 80 and I would argue that you were also I mean, you already said it you were working at home.

Mike Todd:

There's not a single attorney here that's not working when they go home. Yeah, like, not because of the pandemic, they were doing that long before. You're doing writing, you're doing research, blah blah. You know you're doing stuff after hours always, so that's why it's okay for you to not be here some of the time, and for you specifically I mean to take it in the grand scheme of things you've had some of the biggest cases from this firm. So really you've funded all of us to work for quite a while. You know, it's not it's the amount of work that gets put in. I'm saying where someone like me gets to clock out and not have to spend as much time worrying about what's going on at the office. In my off hours I get to go play guitar and have fun.

Karen Koehler :

Yeah, but I do like people working in the office. I think it's more healthy. I think it's more fun. Yeah, but I do like people working in the office. I think it's more healthy. I think it's more fun. I do. I'm a big Teams person. I'm the biggest Teams user in the law firm.

Karen Koehler :

I just call people. I never say are you available for a chat? I don't. I just call everybody cold call all the time. Everybody just gets used to calling me back Because if you're there you'll pick up and if you're not there, you won't. I don't care. I'm always going to default to calling you and just talking. But everybody doesn't do that. In fact, very few people do that. The organic nature of having get-togethers I like it. I think it's really good. I think the more that we're together, the more that we can be human. The more that we can be human, the more that living is good. We spend a lot of time working in this firm with this amount of stress. We spend a lot of energy and angst and we have this weight of responsibility on us all the time. I think it's really healthy to be able to work with other people and share all of that. And I don't like the cliques, but I'm in a clique, I'm in the partner clique.

Mike Todd:

Everybody's in one. That's the way it is usually.

Mo Hamoudi :

I understand a lot of what you just said. I have a lot of disagreements with what you just said Okay, don't swallow it. I won't swallow it. I mean a couple of things. I think that a law firm that has people in the office I'm not disagreeing with you on this, no, I know but it will influence culture.

Karen Koehler :

Agreed.

Mo Hamoudi :

And it will influence sustainability. Agreed, those are both. The other thing is that you have to lead by example as leaders, because if you want to be a leader, then the leader has got to be there, has got to show up and has got to have skin in the game. And if the leader feels like, well, I've done my thing and I've put in the work, I've put in the labor, therefore, now I get, I've put into work, I've put into labor, therefore, now I get the spoils of war, I shall enjoy, I get that. That's totally legitimate.

Karen Koehler :

You tell me this in 20 years.

Mo Hamoudi :

Well, I will, because I will, I will tell you this in 20 years. Is that is that? It is, it, is it.

Karen Koehler :

I mean I could. Could Roosevelt lead the country and tell people to get up and work when he was in a wheelchair? Well, that's different. It is not different, it is different.

Mo Hamoudi :

I don't. All I'm saying is that there is a different culture when the leader is in there doing what they expect others to do, it just is a different culture. Karen, and sporting teams, and just I'm just saying it's just a different culture, it is a totally different culture.

Karen Koehler :

Are you telling me I need to retire?

Mo Hamoudi :

No, I'm not telling you that you need to retire?

Karen Koehler :

You are too. No, I'm not. Yes, you told me I should not be a leader and I need to retire. No, he said what am?

Mo Hamoudi :

I saying Mike.

Karen Koehler :

God words in my mouth.

Mike Todd:

It was change what I say too hard for me to speak um what he said was I feel insulted. If, if, if a leader is not present, then it's difficult for them to be a leader. I'm saying in a very nice way but I'm omnipotent.

Karen Koehler :

I'm present, just not physically present when I was going to say, is that is correct.

Mike Todd:

The difference in what you were implying, mo, and what I observe is it used to be really hard to get in touch with the senior attorneys when I was back before, even with email, because email was around when I first started, but a lot of those guys didn't know how to use a computer they dictated and they they gave every like they were from the generation that everything went to their assistants yeah and they didn't, you know, they only did the law part of it that was it yeah, um, it could you know if one of them like me, as, as a guy running around the building doing stuff, if I needed them for something, I sent an email and hope that I get a response in a couple days, or I have to track them down and, like you said, yeah, they weren't always here.

Mike Todd:

Yeah, I mean they would sometimes. They'd be there in the morning but they'd be in a meeting so you couldn't bust into the meeting and then I'm off doing the rest of my job, and the next time that I try to get them they're already gone for the day.

Mike Todd:

Yeah, you know or they're in a deposition, or they're in a mediation or you know all of the stuff that's part of their job would happen now, like Karen said. I mean, I do the same thing Karen does. If I want to get a hold of somebody really fast, I'll call them on Teams and I know that it's ringing at their desk or on their phone or wherever. If they don't pick up, then I leave a message, or then I do a Teams message, which I know is going to hit them wherever they are. I get answers a lot quicker now. It's still not as fast as I would like, because I want everything to be immediate, but it's faster than it used to be and that's why it's effective, and I think that a leader that's not physically present can still be a leader. But I do think I mean, like I said before, I think that when it comes to there's a feeling that you get when you're around people, yes, there is a in the workplace, especially in a place like this for me it's a team.

Mo Hamoudi :

Yes.

Mike Todd:

You feel like a team, and when there's the team's not around, you can't feel like a team. You feel like you're left out. So I feel like a team. You feel like you're left out. So I feel like the office when more people are here on a regular basis, that we are more powerful yeah, you are an excellent leader.

Mo Hamoudi :

It's just different when you're here.

Karen Koehler :

Don't try to make up for this. I'm not. Don't try. Your moment has passed. Okay, wait, you know what it's it's when you're here. Oh, don't try to make up for this?

Mo Hamoudi :

I'm not. Don't try. Your moment has passed. Okay, wait, you know what? It's terrible.

Mike Todd:

You already said she was a bad leader.

Mo Hamoudi :

Yeah, you're terrible, it's the worst.

Karen Koehler :

Never around you abandoned us.

Mo Hamoudi :

You've gone for months.

Mike Todd:

Doing one in-person deposition, come on, and this is it he's like.

Karen Koehler :

I'm like. You know, I'm leaving joe's first birthday. I'm gonna go see her yeah are you coming back like before the holidays? You're so dramatic, do?

Mo Hamoudi :

you mean like christmas?

Mike Todd:

no, I do this she's like you're not gonna be back until november are you going?

Mo Hamoudi :

she's like I gotta go to ipswich, I gotta go see my daughter. I was like okay, well, see you next year.

Mike Todd:

Yeah, he's such a baby. I don't know. I wouldn't say he's the only one. Sometimes it does seem like people are disappearing.

Karen Koehler :

I would say that you know, in summary, there are very good things and then there's not so good things. Yeah, you know, we have at least two paralegals here that would not work here if they couldn't be remote, because they live an hour and a half away without traffic. Yeah, there are.

Mike Todd:

Now I would say, when I first started here, you just wouldn't. That person wouldn't have a job.

Karen Koehler :

No, they wouldn't.

Mike Todd:

You wouldn't have hired them. Or if they moved away and were that far away, you would probably say we're going to, you're going to have to move on.

Karen Koehler :

Correct, that's right, but now because of technology.

Mike Todd:

There's one person in particular that doesn't come into the office at all. Actually, we've got another person that you just hired that's not working out of the office at all.

Karen Koehler :

Well, they're contracts, contract pro-legals, but yeah, and that's helpful because of the ebb and flow of work, where you can do stuff like this, but I I feel very honored to have been able to work in offices that were completely full it was fun, yeah it was more fun. There was also shouting at various times and bad behavior we know I, I myself had some of those interactions. But there, there was, there was was, it was more vibrant, it was fun.

Mo Hamoudi :

Teaming with life? Yeah, I think.

Karen Koehler :

I think it presents a challenge and you know, we've, we've, we've got new, new senior partners who are going to be, you know, the next generation of leader that are preparing to to. You know, cover for my shortcomings in terms of being present and stuff like that. Um, but there's good and there's bad, and then there's everything in between, and I think that it's a real challenge to figure out. How can we keep making this better? How can people, how can we have a good working environment? Um, just because you're remote doesn't mean you stop having a good working environment. We, just we just. Here's an example. We just decided, because wednesday is our day, well, we're gonna have a really good breakfast every wednesday.

Karen Koehler :

It's gonna start in september love it, um, and people aren't gonna have to worry about bringing a breakfast. It's gonna be here to be here. It's going to be healthy, it's going to be delicious, it's going to be fun. So, just reminding people that you know, with our little tidbits, our little tidbits to enchant them to come into the office, there's a lot of good things that happen in the office.

Mike Todd:

Well, and we're trying to do, you've been trying to combat it by doing activities too, and I think that next one that we have coming up is going to be pretty good. Yeah, the forge we're going to make, going to make knives.

Karen Koehler :

We went to the mariners game and had a great time and you know I do certain things in person. I have, uh, I do retreats. I've done them at my cabin, at my house, when we're getting ready to go into trial. Get the whole trial team, the at the cabin there was like 10 of us because it was the BLM trial we were getting ready for before it settled. But we have these mini-retreats now for regular trials. That one was a two-day retreat and those are in person and they are very engaging and they're very good because they are really team. My purpose is team building. We're all together and we're creating this plan. We're looking at what are the pros and the cons. We have the big yellow sticky. We don't have anything really tech.

Mo Hamoudi :

We have the big yellow sticky sheets and we line it with all of our ideas, that's right, and it's brainstorming and everybody is involved and people love it, that's right.

Karen Koehler :

That's right. And it's brainstorming and everybody is involved and people love it, yeah, yeah. So there's times and places, but on a sustained basis. Well, I'm going to just continue to be a worse and worse leader.

Mo Hamoudi :

Oh my God, you're so dramatic.

Karen Koehler :

Okay.

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Karen Koehler

Co-host
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Mo Hamoudi

Co-host

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