The Velvet Hammer™ Podcast

Confronting the "Let Them" Philosophy: Trial Lawyers Debate Self-Help Culture

• Karen Koehler and Mo Hamoudi • Season 5 • Episode 39

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Karen Koehler and Mo Hamoudi debate the viral “Let Them” theory by Mel Robbins and whether it works in the real world of trial law. From self-help culture and quick-fix thinking to emotional intelligence, religion, and moral accountability, this episode breaks down what happens when “letting go” meets the practice of law. 

Mo questions if “let them” is wisdom or avoidance, while Karen tests the idea against real courtroom dynamics, including what would happen if a lawyer actually “let them” in trial. Mike Todd joins to explore the line between healthy boundaries and abandoning responsibility, leading to one conclusion: trial lawyers don’t let them.

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Hosted by Karen Koehler and Mo Hamoudi, trial lawyers at Stritmatter Law, a nationally recognized plaintiff personal injury and civil rights law firm based in Washington State.

Produced by Mike Todd, Audio & Video Engineer, and Kassie Slugić, Executive Producer.

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Mo Hamoudi :

we're going to tell them today we're going to talk about my topic, no well yeah, no, it's I, I.

Mike Todd:

I stopped us when we were restarting, so, uh, why don't you guys give me your topics again?

Karen Koehler :

okay no, we're not going to redo it. We can't redo it. It already happened. That moment has passed no, it's not.

Mo Hamoudi :

We are on this great topic I want to talk about, and it's called about the power of no.

Mike Todd:

Stop everybody. We're not going to do it. Go ahead and let's just start on the power of let them.

Mo Hamoudi :

The power of let them. I'm not going to let you. He kind of wants mine because mine is the power of no.

Karen Koehler :

We're arguing with each other. We're clearly not letting them.

Mo Hamoudi :

Okay.

Karen Koehler :

As usual, we had a debate about whose topic we're going to discuss, and karen won, as always, she controls. Yeah, go ahead.

Mike Todd:

No, no, you should go first I'm gonna let you, you're gonna let me. Well, no, you gotta. You gotta explain who. Where does where this idea come from?

Karen Koehler :

well, let's have him tell us what it is, and then I'm gonna knock it down. How about that? That works okay, go.

Mo Hamoudi :

Well, karen wanted to talk about this new concept, which it's not a new concept.

Karen Koehler :

Well, let's have him tell us what it is, and then I'm going to knock it down. How about that? That works.

Mo Hamoudi :

Okay, go Well. Karen wanted to talk about this new concept, which it's not a new concept. A former lawyer who is now a self-help guru, Mel Robbins, wrote a book called Let them. Prior to publishing the book Let them, she was doing a podcast, you know, and discussing some of these principles. She was in her, I think, 40s, somewhere there. Her and her husband were experiencing a significant financial issue and she decided to recreate herself, and this is who she's become. The concept of Let them is nothing, wait a minute.

Karen Koehler :

So we, as lawyers, doing what we do, can't imagine doing anything else.

Mo Hamoudi :

Yeah.

Karen Koehler :

And she abandoned her profession.

Mo Hamoudi :

Yeah.

Karen Koehler :

Because was she successful?

Mo Hamoudi :

I don't know. I don't know much about her legal career, clearly not. Well, what does that mean?

Karen Koehler :

That means obviously she wasn't successful. Okay, so she didn't, If she probably wasn't successful. I don't know. Did she talk about it in the book?

Mo Hamoudi :

No, she didn't talk about the legal career. She talked more about her family financial issues.

Karen Koehler :

But how do you get financial issues if you're a well-performing lawyer? Financial issues, but how do you get? Financial issues, if you're a well-performing lawyer, because you're trying to be a self-help guru, so you're talking about issues, but this is before.

Mike Todd:

No, I know. Well, I don't know specifically what she did. I did some quick reading while you guys were talking about this and she kind of came. Her self-help stuff started when she did a TED Talk in 2011. That was about what became her first book, the Five Second Rule, which is making a decision on impulse within five seconds of whenever you're going to do it. I mean, I'm paraphrasing in a very simplified way, but that was her first foray into it.

Karen Koehler :

Okay.

Mike Todd:

This one, I don't know if it's.

Karen Koehler :

I didn't look to see how many books she has but she had already established herself as a self help person and she'd stopped being a lawyer.

Mike Todd:

Yeah, and I don't know why I didn't look to the history of that, but that doesn't necessarily mean that she was a bad lawyer, karen. Come on, that's right Karen. She could. She had this idea that she wanted to tell the rest of the world on how to better herself.

Karen Koehler :

But I thought that she was like in crisis, like the family was in crisis. They couldn't pay their bills, that's correct.

Mo Hamoudi :

That's what the book says the Let them book says they had a financial problem.

Mike Todd:

And they didn't say why no?

Mo Hamoudi :

And then that she, you know there was something about debt, and then she got through it with her husband and they were just, you know, in a predicament. Um, laid a little bit of context. But okay, the five second rule I'm familiar with the let them theory. I'm familiar with a lot of.

Mike Todd:

It is just eastern philosophy made very simple for americans to access, I would even say common sense, not even other philosophy I mean I mean you, I like that, the let them theory to me sounds like you know the hands off management that a lot of people do in business, where you allow your employees to do what they're supposed to do and don't micromanage what's happening. But she talks about, about her. Obviously I haven't read the book. So yeah, I mean I understand what you're saying.

Mo Hamoudi :

Yeah. So it came to her because really with her daughter that she was constantly trying to micromanage her daughter's life. She was concerned about her daughter's future and she wanted to be involved so much in her daughter's development and one day there was like a dance or something that was going on. There was like a dance or something that was going on. It was like a dance and she just said I'm going to let my daughter just do what she needs to do and I'm not going to get involved and just let her be her. I'm going to let myself be myself.

Karen Koehler :

Some people would say that that is reestablishing boundaries after being codependent. Again, what's fascinating about? And she's not the only one? I'm not critical of her. More power to her and she's very articulate and I like the way she uses examples and stuff. But make no bones about it. People are looking for the quick fix and this caters to it. And it's not snake oil, because it's not false, but it is. It is. This is common sense. This is like nothing new.

Mike Todd:

yeah, and I I mean, like you just said, it's not like I wouldn't take another movement like this that happened a while back called the secret and say that it's like that. But it's in the same vein of here. Here's something you can do to make yourself feel better. Here's something you can do to make yourself not as stressed. Are those things good? Yeah, but I also feel like it's common sense that people should already kind of know, and making yourself out as some kind of guru with simple concepts like that to me is a little goofy.

Karen Koehler :

I liked her. I'm going to be honest. I liked it. When I first heard her on Oprah because I love Oprah I liked it and then I wanted to listen to more and I couldn't bear it.

Mo Hamoudi :

I couldn't bear it. Why not?

Karen Koehler :

Well, because I felt I haven't analyzed it enough. I don't feel like I don't think it's taking advantage of people in a negative way, but I feel like it is too forced. And the way that she presents I don't like that kind of tone, which is kind of pressured speech. It's everything is emphasized, everything is amazing or horrible. It's not natural. It's an over um, slightly exaggerated presentation style. This is not my kind of style. I like Oprah, who's way more comfortable in herself. I don't feel like you know it makes me anxious to listen to it. I think my mind says this is just too much. Like this is too overwrought, and I also don't believe in people that give solutions Like this is how you. This is the solution to your issues well, what?

Mo Hamoudi :

give me examples of what? Why you think it's overwrought? Well, and what do they do?

Mike Todd:

is the podcast an extension of her, like they're just kind of talking to people and applying it to real life, or she?

Karen Koehler :

actually will. Either has her own thing or she has a lot of guests on yeah who are also, are self-help people or maybe they're like one person I've seen.

Karen Koehler :

I'll give you some examples. She has a lawyer on. The lawyer has a podcast and his whole deal is on how to talk to people and get what you want, get your way with them, or how to diffuse a situation or whatever. He's a communicator. He calls himself a communication specialist. As a lawyer, I'm just you know and so she interviewed him. She interviews often people about being in narcissistic relationships, so she'll talk to different people that have studied narcissism, but she wants the folks to see it down and so some of it's interesting.

Karen Koehler :

Some of it, to me, is not interesting at all yeah most of it and all of it is, as I said, hyped.

Mo Hamoudi :

It's a hyped kind of presentation well, what she's doing is nothing new.

Mike Todd:

It's been going going on for decades.

Mo Hamoudi :

Dr Stephen Covey, malcolm Gladwell there's like a lot of people that have historically done what she is doing. Where I think, where my criticisms would lie with Mel Robbins, is that the concept of let them, though helpful, in, like what I call, like you know, drive through dealing with an issue. It's a drive-through way of dealing with an issue. It's like give me a number three with a Coke and fries. It's like that. It's like let them Really there are limitations.

Karen Koehler :

Hold on, wait. An example. Do the example that she gives to illustrate what you just said of like you're in the line waiting to get to the cash register yeah.

Mo Hamoudi :

So, for example, I'm not saying in the line, I'm saying like, I'm comparing it to like fast food, it's a fast food solution no, yeah, I get what you're saying.

Mike Todd:

You're saying that they're coming up with a solution that they could spoon feed to people who are? Going to be able to understand it simply and wrap their heads around it and then theoretically apply it to their lives, and it's going to make things better.

Mo Hamoudi :

Right, but the concept really requires a greater deal of emotional intelligence, because you cannot just tell somebody to let them say, for example, mike's in crisis and making poor decisions in his life that are putting him and his family at risk. I'm not going to tell Mike, let them. And let Mike just dig his own grave. If I am a friend, what I'm going to do is I'm going to reflect back to Mike, his behavior, and say, mike, this behavior is inappropriate, you can't behave like this. This has consequences financially for you, morally for you, and you are better than this, and I will encourage him and persuade him to behave better. What she does is this idea of like removing responsibility from relationship and saying that I will love you, but I'm going to let you be you, I'm going to let me be me. I understand that she's supporting this anti-emotional dependence thing, but I just think that's a fallacy. We all emotionally depend on each other it's about she's.

Karen Koehler :

She's just trying to riff off of setting boundaries yeah but here's an example that she uses and I can't remember. I think it's from with oprah. So you're standing in line and you're waiting for your turn and there's only one person there at the bank of cash registers. Like there's no one else there, and now the line is five deep not, and you're like where is the other cash register? And then you're looking around like hey, she needs to call um the manager, so the manager. And then you're looking to see where the manager is. You can't see the manager and you know. Then you're thinking, well, this is really a poorly run company and they should have had a better system for this. Their call button should work. And then and then you become the expert on how they should be running their business, which is increasing your anxiety and you're getting mad and that's why you should just let them. They're taking their time. They don't have but one person out there. Just let them. That's kind of one of her examples.

Mike Todd:

And it's I mean like that, as, like you said, as a concept that's been told before, that's been stated before. I can't place which one, but I mean that's just letting go and allowing the world to happen, and not I mean as you were describing, that I was like, oh God, that sounds like me. I can imagine that, but I also don't. It's not my responsibility to tell that employee in that store I'm not their manager, you know I'm not the owner. You as a person need to calm down and let the rest of the world run it at speed. You know the choice is stay there and wait to buy your stuff or leave and buy it somewhere else.

Mo Hamoudi :

But every traditional religious text says what he just said about patience, about self-control, about discipline of thought. I mean, that's what she's essentially reduced to let them. And you know, I mean, what I think is super crazy is the like amount of people that are so enthusiastic about what she is saying and are like responding to her.

Mike Todd:

That's the internet age man. Everything's faster now. I mean it is faster.

Mo Hamoudi :

That's the internet age man. Everything's faster. Now I mean it is faster. But she's talking about concepts, that when you say it's common sense, and people are euphoric when they see her. They're cheering and excited because somebody's telling them something as simple as hey, be a little more patient.

Karen Koehler :

I think I should write a book. I've just got a great idea.

Mo Hamoudi :

What's the book?

Karen Koehler :

I think this could be groundbreaking, and I can make millions what's the book? Go for it it's called Don't Pick your Nose in Public. I'm not kidding you guys. I think I can make a lot of money off of this wait, that's a really good.

Mo Hamoudi :

Okay so, but is it actually about the concept of picking your nose, or are you talking about something more? No it, but is it actually?

Karen Koehler :

about the concept of picking your nose, or are you talking about something more? No, it's literally. Don't pick your nose in public. I'm going to go and I'm going to get a lot. No, what are you laughing about?

Mike Todd:

Our audience doesn't know, but I'm picking my nose right now.

Karen Koehler :

Oh, my God, he is.

Mo Hamoudi :

Digging for treasures.

Karen Koehler :

So there you go. Okay so there you go. Okay, well, I'm not. I don't want to minimize the fact that I don't think that there's a lot of harm involved, unless there is harm involved, because some things you shouldn't let people just do yes, it's true.

Mike Todd:

I I mean. This has been my problem with these types of books since the first time I was made aware of them. I remember when my dad bought and handed me Stephen Covey's book.

Mo Hamoudi :

Okay.

Mike Todd:

And my dad used to really read a lot of self-help books. Yeah, he didn't necessarily need them, he was a successful person. But I think the point that I was getting at earlier is everybody's looking for this type of solution. So back before the internet, the book would come out, it would get reviewed, maybe on Oprah or in the New York times, and then people, professional people, would be like hey, wait, there's this, there's a solution of things that I need, because I need you know, because I want to do a little bit better than I was doing before. And they then go to the people that they know and say hey, man, you're working as a janitor, you follow these, you might be able to make it and do a better job.

Mo Hamoudi :

Yeah, stuff like that.

Mike Todd:

I get the need for that. But I also feel like what Karen was kind of pointing out is and we both have if it's a common sense thing or if it's something that's been taught to you by religion or philosophy, then it's been around for a long time and somebody's just repackaging. That's what cult leaders do.

Karen Koehler :

It's all repackaging, yeah.

Mike Todd:

I mean, it's just taking those ideas and making it in a more understandable route for the modern time. The Bible was written a long time ago. Not a lot of people take the time to sift through it. It's kind of hard to read. I read it when I was younger, but I haven't read the whole thing by any means and I don't have parts of it memorized like a lot of people do. But the people that do are taking those old ideas and repackaging those into this type of situation. Hey, let's take this self-help book and use these old ideas. You're never going to know. I found the solution, but the solution was already there.

Mo Hamoudi :

Well, I think that what she's doing is that she's meeting a demand.

Mike Todd:

Yes.

Mo Hamoudi :

And the demand is that people have a severe deficiency in understanding who they are, in their self-confidence, in their self-actualization, like who am I? And what she is doing is she's providing some food, that is tickling that appetite, that is quenching that type of thirst, and so I think she I mean I read her book, I've listened to her.

Karen Koehler :

Wait, hold on to that thought before you go to that. The key element, the pervasive element, is it is simple. Well, that that's the simplicity People want the quick and easy fix.

Mike Todd:

But it's also replacing religion. It's taking those ideas that religion used to fill, and with the Movement away from religion, there's less religious people now than there were years ago and there's, I think, increasing more and more of people who aren't connected to a religion. So now they need something else for their moral compass.

Karen Koehler :

Because they don't have that, because they're used to somebody telling them how to think and what to do.

Mike Todd:

God would tell them what to do. Yes or the preacher or well, that's god's voice. Yeah, but that's what I was taught.

Mo Hamoudi :

But I but I want to adjust that a little bit. I think that, like it's not, it's religion is is what I think is spirit. I think people are like disconnected to their spirit, really like disconnected to the purpose of their existence. You know, this is why people need to hear things like this. They need to know that their life has some bigger purpose. When people start to like confront, like mortality and like, oh my goodness, people are not, are quite cynical. Right now, a majority of people are quite cynical. Society is really divided. She picked up on that. Society's really divided. She picked up on that and what she did is take traditional concepts that have been shared over eons and made it into a little catchphrase like drive through, let them.

Mo Hamoudi :

And I'm like good for her because she's well-intentioned I mean when you hear her read her book, she's a well-intentioned human being. She's trying to make the world a little better. I would rather have people listen and read her book and do what she is saying than some of the other crazy stuff and harmful stuff that's being pushed out.

Karen Koehler :

Okay, but we're not going to go down that route because, that's the crazy stuff, and we can do that later.

Mo Hamoudi :

Okay.

Karen Koehler :

We're just going to talk about this. Let them thing until we're done with it.

Mo Hamoudi :

Okay.

Karen Koehler :

Okay, I'm done with it.

Mike Todd:

No, I'm just kidding, well, and I was going to say too really quickly on the dark side that backstory could be fake or partially fake, I mean. Oprah's been. You know, if you go back to James Frey, oprah got really burned on not knowing anything about that one and I think that her delivery sounds a lot to me like a publicity coach. Worked with her quite a bit. I haven't listened to her, but the way that you guys have been talking about it.

Mike Todd:

You know, that's what a lot of this stuff is today, just marketing. Hey, we found an idea.

Karen Koehler :

There's a lot of marketing. I do think that she's earnest. I just think that she's. You know, I don't care for the style. It's too overwrought for me. I like a more natural kind of presentation and maybe that's just her style. She was a lawyer and, I think, a trial lawyer, so maybe she developed a way of speaking which was over-emphatic, which is, I don't like, over emphatic Now over dramatic, but but I mean, think about all the trouble that you can get them get into if you just let them.

Mo Hamoudi :

Yeah, I mean, I said it.

Karen Koehler :

but I also want to say I mean, what if my clients came to me and they said you know, my son was gunned down by the police? We have it all on camera and we have, you know, they're now prosecuting the police officers and we think that the city should be held accountable, but we don't really know what to do and you know, the criminal system is taking care of it. And I mean, I don't think that the police, you know, are ever going to change, so I don't know what the purpose would be. But somebody suggested that we should come and see a lawyer because of this is what happened. And I just said well, you, you know, you should just let them no, just let them now.

Mo Hamoudi :

Obviously. That that's you. Won't do that.

Karen Koehler :

That's crazy but but but I suspect Karen if you're going to take things to the people.

Mike Todd:

Some people take things to, but that's why these types of ideas are a little dangerous they will take it to the extreme yes everybody.

Mo Hamoudi :

Everybody does with anything but what suspect maybe. And I'd want to know and ask Mel Robbins what happened in your legal career that now you're a let them? Because I don't litigate like let them, oh, let me give you some examples.

Karen Koehler :

Let me give you some examples. Lee Topcase, dear defense lawyer, give us the stuff, dear defense defense defense lawyer. Well, I'll get to it when I can. Here's some stuff. I might give you some more stuff, but I'm not sure if I'm going to give you any of this other stuff. By the way, I'm going on vacation for a month, so you can't do anything about it I'm I'm not letting them.

Mo Hamoudi :

I'm filing motion after motion. You're violating the let them concept.

Karen Koehler :

I am violating the let them concept.

Mo Hamoudi :

I am violating the let them concept? Yeah, absolutely not. There's no way I would lawyer like a let them concept.

Karen Koehler :

I'm in trial and the defense lawyer keeps interrupting me intentionally and trying to intimidate me.

Mo Hamoudi :

Let them Karen.

Karen Koehler :

Uh-huh, oh sure.

Mo Hamoudi :

So it's just not realistic. You can't apply. I wonder if that's something. What I want to know, honestly, when she was a lawyer, were there contentious relationships, contentious experiences that so frustrated her that she got tired of it and said you know what? I don't want to be in an adversarial thing anymore, and then moved on. And the five second rule, which is all about taking a deep breath and before you make a decision, and also the let them I wonder if that is that would be interesting.

Karen Koehler :

I want to know that because we're, as trial lawyers of 40 and 15 years experience, we would not be writing the let them book. What would we write? We would be writing the. What book we would be writing? Hit them between the eyes as fast as you can book.

Mo Hamoudi :

Meet Ruthless Moe.

Karen Koehler :

Oh, meet, ruthless Moe. There is no way we would write this thing. We would write. We would write how to intimidate your adversary.

Mo Hamoudi :

How to.

Karen Koehler :

How not to roll your eyes in public, especially at the judge.

Mo Hamoudi :

How to do it privately how to have a head of the law firm call your colleague and say he's not collegial oh my gosh, that's right.

Karen Koehler :

I mean, our books would not be good, they would not it would not be good.

Mo Hamoudi :

No, it would be. Oh, it would be just how to. How to? How to live in chaos? Okay, how to? How to solve unsolvable problems? Yes, you know how to deal with stress by being aggressive.

Karen Koehler :

How to always represent the underdog.

Mo Hamoudi :

How to step up to bullies. Ooh the bullies.

Mike Todd:

Ooh, ooh.

Karen Koehler :

There is no way we would let them. We don't let them no.

Mike Todd:

We rarely let them, not even rarely, I'd say almost never.

Karen Koehler :

You can't no you can't Not.

Mike Todd:

Even rarely, I'd say almost never. You can't, no, you can't Not in this business. You can't do that.

Karen Koehler :

Oh, how to let them have the last word.

Mo Hamoudi :

This is why you don't like.

Mike Todd:

Exactly. This is why we don't like those books.

Mo Hamoudi :

I just realized, I just realized.

Karen Koehler :

She makes my skin crawl. Well, she doesn't, but her concept does Her concept like, like bothers you. I like it, okay. I like it for the situation where you're in the checkout line and I am wondering where, why aren't there more checkers here? I like it in the situation where I'm not engaged with anybody okay, and I'm just making observations.

Mo Hamoudi :

This is okay. The book we need to write is how not to let them. Oh, there you go, then we'd probably get sued because all we would do is take all of our concepts and just flip it and reverse it.

Mike Todd:

And just reverse it.

Mo Hamoudi :

Turn the five seconds rule to the impulse.

Mike Todd:

The five second rule was the 10 second rule, before too.

Mo Hamoudi :

Yeah, that's right, count to 10.

Mike Todd:

Count to 10. To calm down, I mean, come on, oh man, yeah, that's right, count to ten, count to ten To calm down, I mean come on, oh man.

Karen Koehler :

Okay, well, we kind of dissed her. No, we didn't dissed her up we acknowledge that there's a need for this. There's pros and there's cons.

Mo Hamoudi :

There's pros and cons.

Mike Todd:

We didn't diss her. We're dissing the whole self-help industry more than anything else?

Mike Todd:

No, she's doing great, her family's great. How many times can you tell that same story? Well, once again. That's. My problem with the self-help model is that it's all predicated on the audience thinking that you are rags to riches or you had a very difficult situation that you were able to triumph over. That has to be the linchpin for that story, and it's never like I don't ever. I mean like I did look up what happened to her and she was a legal. She worked for a legal aid in New York and then became an analyst for CNN and covered the George Zimmerman trial. Then the reason that they were in debt was a failed restaurant with her and her husband.

Karen Koehler :

So that was even totally outside. She was only a little bit a real lawyer.

Mike Todd:

She wasn't really Wait a minute. Legal aid. I love her.

Karen Koehler :

How long was she in legal aid for?

Mo Hamoudi :

I'd have to go back. No, wait a minute.

Mike Todd:

She was doing it in the 90s, I'd have to go back. No, wait a minute, she was doing it in the 90s.

Mo Hamoudi :

That is a rough time to be in legal aid in New York For how long? With Giuliani in the helm, that would have been the worst.

Karen Koehler :

Yeah, but for how long?

Mo Hamoudi :

It doesn't matter, she went there, I don't know.

Karen Koehler :

He's going to like her because she did legal aid.

Mike Todd:

I already love her. She tried to open a restaurant. She had a failed restaurant which I didn't look that deep into.

Karen Koehler :

She tried to be wealthy after. When you work for a legal aid, you don't care about money. You care about the cause.

Mo Hamoudi :

But maybe the restaurant was for her husband. Her husband was like I want to be a chef.

Karen Koehler :

But she abandoned being a legal attorney to be a legal analyst. We are totally assuming right now.

Mo Hamoudi :

All I know is that somebody who says I'm going to go work at Legal Aid in New York in the 90s. I like that.

Karen Koehler :

Okay, you like that.

Mo Hamoudi :

I like that. It says a lot about their character.

Karen Koehler :

Okay, but why do they leave Legal Aid? That doesn't say a lot about their character.

Mo Hamoudi :

Well, I don't know. We've got to ask her.

Karen Koehler :

She left it to be a legal, she left it to be a TV.

Mo Hamoudi :

She likes the publicity.

Mike Todd:

I am more interested, which is?

Mo Hamoudi :

also not a problem.

Karen Koehler :

It's not a problem I will say which is my best song.

Mo Hamoudi :

I'm more interested in writing the book how Not to Let them yeah, how Not to Let them. I think that would be a better book. Don't Let them, don't, let them, don't Let them, don't Let them yeah, okay bestseller.

Karen Koehler :

Yeah, we do all right, that was a good one. We really trashed her, though no, we didn't.

Mo Hamoudi :

I'm sorry, mel, because I do really think that you're amazing too.

Karen Koehler :

I love you. You were in legal aid okay.

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Karen Koehler

Co-host
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Mo Hamoudi

Co-host

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