The Velvet Hammer™ Podcast

Anticipating the Loss - When Trial Lawyers Feel It Coming

• Karen Koehler and Mo Hamoudi • Season 5 • Episode 41

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Episode 41: Anticipating the Loss - When Trial Lawyers Feel It Coming

When you’ve been in the courtroom long enough, you know the feeling. The slow, heavy dread of a case slipping away. In this episode of The Velvet Hammer™, Karen Koehler, Mo Hamoudi, and Mike Todd talk about what it’s like to sense a loss before it happens, both in trial and in life.

Karen revisits her 2022 trial against Seattle Children’s Hospital, where every ruling felt stacked against her. Mo shares lessons from his years as a death penalty defense lawyer and how shutting off emotion became a survival tactic. Karen challenges that mindset, arguing that emotion is part of what makes her human in court. Mike opens up about facing his own mortality during open-heart surgery and what it means to surrender control.

If this conversation resonates, follow the show, share it with a friend who needs steadiness under pressure, and leave a review telling us how you manage moments when the odds lean against you. Your story might help someone else keep going.

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Hosted by Karen Koehler and Mo Hamoudi, trial lawyers at Stritmatter Law, a nationally recognized plaintiff personal injury and civil rights law firm based in Washington State.

Produced by Mike Todd, Audio & Video Engineer, and Kassie Slugić, Executive Producer.

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Karen Koehler :

All right. Mike had the great idea to talk about how we anticipate a loss and how we feel as we're anticipating that loss. It's a real upbeat subject for our podcast today. Thanks, Mike, for that. You're welcome. And not the loss itself, which is a whole nother topic.

Mo Hamoudi:

That's a different topic.

Karen Koehler :

So waiting for the loss, the anticipation of the loss. And that would be both personally and in trial. Because as we know, trial is a microcosm of life. So let's start off with trial. Of course, as soon as you said that topic, I immediately, it immediately took me back. So remember, I have this fragmented mind, which is very um bifurcated, and when I don't when I'm done thinking about something, I stick it up on the shelf and take it away. And you triggered it instantly. With the case that I tried uh in 2022, I had started off that year, uh, it was a brutal year. I tried the first case, which was a month-long trial in that's the the wrongful murder case that was in in uh Euphreda. I tried that case from a hotel room. The second trial But you won that case. I did win that case, was the Simon case, which was you know the big verdict in Pierce County. That was a month. And then I had the next trial. And they were back to back. And I don't, I don't when I was in when I was finishing up with one trial, I was already working on the paperwork.

Mike Todd:

That's what I was gonna say. Your paralegals were already working on the other trial.

Karen Koehler :

And other attorneys were preparing stuff, but I was literally working on that paperwork with them while I was still trying a different case. So one boom boom. So we go we get to trial number three. And the judge had made some well, first of all, I didn't argue any of the pretrial motions or trial motions, because now in a in a team, I like other people to do that, and I don't even care who does it. Like in the wrongful murder case, I had Farhad argue a lot of them, and he had been out of law school for three months.

Mike Todd:

I was gonna say, wasn't that that was his first time?

Karen Koehler :

Now the judge kept flipping back and forth.

Mike Todd:

Yeah.

Karen Koehler :

So we had to keep re-arguing them, and a lot of it was me re-arguing them, um, because he would come back and revisit each thing he ordered. But this is what this is what you have to do sometimes when you're a busy trialer. You are literally at night working on the next trial. I get to trial number three. We had a plan. The plan was one lawyer was gonna argue it was Ruby, all the motions, which he did. She lost all of them, pretty much. Pretty much, and it wasn't her fault. The judge was a problem for us in this case. Had been before the trial, was all through the trial. Secondly, there were two other lawyers on the case, John and Ed, and then there was me. And we had kind of a plan of how this trial was going to go down. I was gonna be trying trying it all by myself. We get to the trial, we lose all the motions, again, motions and liminy that we cared about.

Mike Todd:

So you were already at a disadvantage.

Karen Koehler :

Very dis so we're trying to figure out and navigate all these motions in limini. We're having to tell our witnesses and our clients about the motions and liminy. The judge is getting mad because occasionally a witness would forget what we told them about emotion and limini. Motion liminy is you can't talk about something.

Mike Todd:

Yeah, so they would make a mistake talking about something.

Karen Koehler :

In other words, here's some of the motions and limini. This is a case against Seattle Children's Hospital, and the parents weren't allowed to tell the jury how they found out that their that the hospital had aspergillus in it, that their that their child who had brain surgery was exposed to aspergillus. They couldn't say how they found out. They couldn't say that they knew that there were other patients in there because other parents talked to them about the fact that their children had been exposed to aspergillus. He limited so much of everything. He wouldn't allow our experts, our standard of care experts, to talk about what their own standard of care was, how they would do it. They could only talk about what the standard of care was. So navigating this was extremely difficult. Then it turned out that it wasn't working out to have that many people trying the case. And so I took on the lion's share after the first week of trial, already in a deficit. And we were continuing to lose every motion that we were fighting for, and we were continuing to get hammered by the judge. In fact, the defense lawyers were just standing up objecting to almost everything I did all the time. That's I mean within days I was worried. After that first week, very worried. We tried to renew settlement discussions, not accepted. We're marching towards not good.

Mike Todd:

You're marching towards a loss.

Karen Koehler :

Knew it after the first week when we could not make up that deficit. That everything was going bad, the judge hated me, the judge hated the case. At least that's what it appeared like to us. It appeared to us that we weren't going to be able to really go after this hospital for what happened. And there had been a lot of money that was offered to settle the case, and you're looking at a severely injured child and their parents, and you're marching forward because you have no choice. No choice. And at the end of the day, in that case, we lost the medical negligence part, but we won the contamination of the skull cap part. So there was a dirty verdict of 750,000, but that was nothing compared to what that case was worth. And when you are anticipating it, here's what you feel like. First of all, you're playing a flirt, so you're hoping that that that's not going to happen. And you have to keep thinking positive. Every day you start off thinking today's a new day. Every day you're throwing yourself at that wall, at that judge, at that jury, with 150 million percent of anything that's in your body. You are stifling all the worry and the anxiety. You cannot feel it. You cannot let the jury sense it. You cannot let your client sense it, even though you know they're watching this thinking this isn't good. And the the defense lawyer, you can just feel the aura of their, you know, you just want to swipe the smug look off their faces because they're they're winning, and the judge is just helping you not prevail. And you are just marching towards this result. And so when the jury finally gives its answer, you're not even shocked, even though it's the worst thing that you can imagine because of what it's doing to your clients. So it's excruciating. You can't acknowledge it in the law. Your job is to present that case. There are no more options that you have. You can't just stop the trial and say, well, I think we're gonna lose, so we would like to stop it. You're spending tons of money putting up expert witnesses, you're having to prepare every night, you're sleeping, you know, your four hours a night instead of your regular amount. And then as soon as that horrible experience is over, I had another legal procedure. I had the Charlena Lyles inquest, which took a month.

Mike Todd:

And was also very difficult.

Karen Koehler :

Also difficult. Yeah. But different, right?

Mike Todd:

Diff in a different way, but it was frustrating, I remember. Because I was there for part of it.

Karen Koehler :

Yeah. So you don't even have time to fully grieve what happened. That's what it feels like.

Mike Todd:

What about you, Mo?

Karen Koehler :

Wait a minute. Was that fun? Was that fun?

Mike Todd:

No, that doesn't sound fun at all. And I mean, I I was here and I I helped out on on that trial. Well, yeah, I helped out on that trial, and I I remember going down there and people and and the changes in you guys as the trial progressed.

Karen Koehler :

Everybody watching the trial kept saying, why does a judge hate you?

Mike Todd:

Oh, yeah, that well, I mean, I'm not gonna speculate too much, but it certainly seemed like the judge had something that he was mad about.

Karen Koehler :

Mad.

Mike Todd:

That wasn't that didn't have to do about your behavior.

Karen Koehler :

And when a judge is angry with you, one side, the jury then picks up on that, obviously. And the jury didn't at the end wasn't I don't think they were particularly angry, so at least we we avoided that. I mean they didn't they did award uh, you know, on on one of the claims, but it it still haunts me when I have to open that because I never really during the process was able to prop, you know, to to deal with any of it. You cannot, you cannot, as a professional, you have to just keep going.

Mike Todd:

Did did you I'm just wondering if you felt that there was anything that you could have done differently.

Karen Koehler :

So, and this is the way that I'm wired. Which thank God I am, because otherwise I don't think I would be a trial lawyer going on or after 40 years. I believe that I do my absolute best and I don't go back, I don't go back and ruminate very little other than, well, I guess we should have settled it, which is just a bunch of in in retrospect, you would maybe you would say, well, I guess, you know, if we were gonna lose, we should have settled. But in terms of everything else, are there things that we could have done differently? Yes. Are there things I wish we would have done differently? I don't allow myself to do that because I think it's cruel and I've seen too many lawyers fold.

Mike Todd:

Do you think that uh I I I guess do you do you ever think about it when you're preparing for other trials?

Karen Koehler :

Yeah, like I never would agree to have that judge again.

Mike Todd:

But that's what I mean. Like things like that.

Karen Koehler :

Yes, I did. Yeah. In fact, when I've had my next trial with a different judge, I was like, I felt like I was healed. It's like, yeah, this is how it's supposed to be.

Mike Todd:

Well, and you just come off two wins. I mean, those those two cases that were positive, I mean You only again, you only feel as good. You don't get to you don't get to feel it really. So, like, I mean, you know, you rolled into that.

Karen Koehler :

I still we celebrated the Simon victory.

Mike Todd:

Yeah, we don't do that very often.

Karen Koehler :

You know when we did it? We did it this year. Yeah, no, I know we did it three years later when we had time. Yeah, with the client.

Mike Todd:

And I mean, I can't remember I I can remember when I first started Jesse Magania, we had a we had a little thing for him. Yeah, but there's not many others. I mean, sometimes they would come into the office, yeah, but and you would sort of be like it wouldn't be a celebration or anything, but people would kind of meet him for a minute.

Karen Koehler :

Their clients don't even come into the office anymore. Not anymore. No. You know, they just they no one comes into the office, so you don't you don't get to have that we don't get as much a uh connection with them. Yeah, that's true for all of us.

Mike Todd:

Yeah, it's by text, by FaceTime, but I mean, unless I have to go to a specific event, like a medical exam or something like that, I don't really interact with the clients much at all now.

Karen Koehler :

Yeah, it's it's all electronic. But those are all really good questions, and i I think it's the same for any person, like uh I know like for athletes, right? They review their films and they want to learn from that and all of that. Well, we don't get a second chance with this.

Mike Todd:

No, and I don't see lawyers looking at film very often. No, unless they're trying to remember I mean, that's the thing. Like if if they have another case that relates to that case and they've got something that happened in another trial that they want to use, that's the only time I ever hear you guys doing that.

Karen Koehler :

Like I don't hear people ruminating about past cases that even dealing with that judge who was who I felt was so hideous to me, um, and it was it was WebEx or it was on Zoom or something like that. I was unfailingly polite. And um no matter how much and he would chastise me right in front of the jury. And because of that, I never said now, if I had lashed out, I would have thought, man, I wish I hadn't done that. Um, but I've been a lawyer for so long that I'm and I'm so comfortable in trial, I knew that I was doing everything that I possibly could. I never rose to the bait, I never acted disrespectfully towards the court. I I was I was like a supplicant at many times as he was berating me. I um yeah.

Mo Hamoudi:

What about you, Mo?

Karen Koehler :

Yeah, you've had a lot of time to think about it now.

Mo Hamoudi:

Well, no, I've been listening to you guys, it's been enlightening.

Karen Koehler :

And horrifying.

Mo Hamoudi:

It's been kind of horrifying. You know, I think that loss for me, I deal with personal and professional differently. So professional anticipation of loss. From the beginning of my career, I immediately was involved in cases where the potential for loss was significant.

Karen Koehler :

Yeah, public defender.

Mo Hamoudi:

Uh, you know, and working on death penalty cases.

Karen Koehler :

Oh, yeah.

Mo Hamoudi:

Where it's the government wielding its ultimate power to end life and take life. And those cases were incredibly difficult for me to deal with right out of the gates because the anticipation of loss was always looming. Right over the case.

Mike Todd:

Was this state or federal?

Mo Hamoudi:

It was federal and state cases. Okay.

Mike Todd:

Because I mean in New York they don't have the death penalty.

Mo Hamoudi:

No, no. It's uh so I worked in San Francisco actually. Oh, okay. And I worked with a lawyer from the Federal Death Penalty Resource Project and uh Michael Burt, and um he taught me very quickly how to deal with the anticipation of loss. And what was incredible about him as a lawyer is that it sharpened him, it gave him an edge and made him work with he was like a force of nature, and I adapted to his style. So what it does for me, and that mindset, that anticipation of loss.

Karen Koehler :

Yeah, what did he teach you?

Mo Hamoudi:

He to be relentless, to be focused, to dig through everything, to prepare, to be disciplined, to um outwork the other side, understanding.

Karen Koehler :

But that's strategy, but how did he tell you teach you how to deal with it mentally?

Mo Hamoudi:

Mentally, he didn't teach me anything.

Karen Koehler :

Okay, well, that's what I was wondering.

Mo Hamoudi:

Well, because I mean, I mean, if you if you met Mike and and Mike is just an incredible human being, is he is very soft-spoken, but in the courtroom, Mike is ruthless in many respects, and it's because emotionally, what he is really good at doing, which is what he taught me, was that he understands that his emotions have no space in a in a in a courtroom where that kind of loss is looming.

Karen Koehler :

So he turns them off completely.

Mo Hamoudi:

Yes.

Karen Koehler :

Yeah. But which you have to do.

Mo Hamoudi:

Well, I was gonna say, did you have to do that too? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I learned how to do it very quickly.

Karen Koehler :

And how did you learn how to do it?

Mo Hamoudi:

Just you just focus on the case. You just turn it off. You go, this isn't about me.

Karen Koehler :

And then how did what how do you turn it back on?

Mo Hamoudi:

Well, once you're done, if you know, and and as a trial lawyer, you know this is the adrenaline. When you turn off your emotions, your adrenaline kick my adrenaline kicks in, and then I'm just on this drive and uh working, and then once the case comes to a closure, whether it's a loss or a win, then that button turns on and then I come down. And then I like have some of the best sleeps I've ever had.

Karen Koehler :

Do you process it?

Mo Hamoudi:

Yes.

Karen Koehler :

You you you do you so you replay it or you allow yourself to think about your emotions that were pent up?

Mo Hamoudi:

No, no, I don't do that as much because I have to go on to the next case. I mean, we were very busy.

Mike Todd:

I was gonna say you have a lot of those cases when you're doing that, right?

Mo Hamoudi:

Oh, yeah, we had three, four. I mean, when you're talking about death penalty cases, you're talking about cases that are incredibly complex and much more complex than any civil case or cr or case I've ever seen. They're so complex.

Mike Todd:

Do you have any idea what the percentage of positive results would have been? Very low. That's what I was gonna say. Like going into it, you pretty much knew you we yeah, might not. Well, it's not even might not.

Mo Hamoudi:

You pretty much expected you were gonna lose. Odds are against us, and our we won a majority of our cases.

Karen Koehler :

Did you apply that philosophy to all of your public defender cases?

Mo Hamoudi:

Everything.

Karen Koehler :

Okay. Do you still apply that?

Mo Hamoudi:

Everything.

Karen Koehler :

So I don't. I used to, yeah, but not in civil cases. I don't, I don't.

Mo Hamoudi:

Yeah.

Mike Todd:

Well, that was something that I was gonna ask you about that case too. That uh I guess not that particular one, because you already said that you didn't push back against the judge, but it's has there ever been a time that you had a judge like that that you pushed back?

Karen Koehler :

Don't get me wrong. I didn't say I didn't push back. I was I was I acted very politely and almost docile and respectfully, but yes, I kept going, which is why he kept getting mad.

Mike Todd:

Yeah. So sorry to interrupt you, Mo, but what do you feel did that change after you left doing death penal kisses?

Mo Hamoudi:

No, because no, because I I've this is I'm addicted to it.

Mike Todd:

Okay.

Mo Hamoudi:

I am addicted to the to that process. To the process of those cases. And I can I've never been able to let it go. And and and the only reason I moved to Seattle was because my wife was like, you know, we had Jude, and we were, and she was like, you can't be traveling the country doing this work for the rest of your life, but I was addicted to it. I was I was focused that I was going to be the best in that discipline, and I was on my way. I was working with the best. And when I got when I left doing that, I did it because it was best for my family. There is no way you can have any personal life doing that work. It is impossible. How long were you on the road when you were doing that? Probably six months out of the year. Yeah, that's without kids when I was working on the road. And it's hard to have a relationship. Yeah. But you're like in a foreign, like a foreign jurisdiction, entirely different court, entirely different people, entirely different rules and processes. And so it's almost like you're you're a new legal career every time you show up somewhere. But I could never turn off I I still can't. But it's really, I think, benefiting a lot of our clients. Like it doesn't, it's not a burden for me to have this kind of thinking. No, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. You know, but it it's benefiting all of our clients in this in this office, I think.

Karen Koehler :

So the fact that I don't turn my emotions off, I mean I can control them to a certain extent, and I have to put some of them at abeyance, like just the total like kind of shove them away until the trial's over. But but I keep, you know, I I I was trained to be that way when I first started. Yeah. Uh and I thought that's that, and that is not just training, that was the way that it was done. You you this is a job, you know, this is your duty, these are and you have to be completely objective. And I I rejected that a long time ago, like a lifetime ago. Uh I stopped doing I stopped following that advice and I allowed emotion into my practice and it's been there ever since. And it does drive a lot of people nuts.

Mo Hamoudi:

How so?

Karen Koehler :

Well, because of how emotional I am as a lawyer.

Mo Hamoudi:

Yeah. You're saying make people nuts, like the other side, the court.

Karen Koehler :

Well, I'm scared to say if I it I drive them nuts because it could be used against me in a legal pleading by another uh governmental entity like the city of Seattle.

Mo Hamoudi:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I by the way, but I mean, I've I've seen you in court. I don't think you're overly emotional. I think that you're appropriately emotional when the time calls for it. But yes, you don't just turn off your emotions, but you're thoughtful about how you use it.

Karen Koehler :

Most jurors that I talk to say that they can tell how much I care about my clients, how passionate I am. Yeah.

Mike Todd:

But I think that can work sometimes.

Karen Koehler :

I mean I think that that's the Well it works for me.

Mike Todd:

I I think that the you know, regular people that don't know anything about the law, you know, except for the TV shows that they watch, all of those images are people getting emotionally involved with their clients. So I think that generally people think that's the way it is. But I think, I mean, listening to you guys and from what I knew before this conversation, yeah, I I don't think you can let too much of that stuff in.

Karen Koehler :

It it so can make it really difficult. So yesterday I watched there was a special, I didn't even know until my brother little brother told me that there was a they turned the Ride the Ducks crash into a half-hour special on King Five.

Mike Todd:

So I watched it last night because my brother told me And were you on they interviewed you, right?

Karen Koehler :

They did, but what I what I saw on it was they because the cameras were there for like a couple months of the maybe not the they gave up after like the first month. But they um they got the testimony of some of the plaintiffs, and in particular they had the two Derschmitt sons whose mother was killed, and they were from Austria. You know, remember international students, tourists, like most of them didn't speak English, and they were there with their interpreters, and they were playing their testimony um back, and I was like, I felt like I was right back there, and I was overcome because I remember how I felt when I was taking that testimony, and that was because I was so connected to them that I just instantly went went back to that feeling of an overwhelming, overwhelming feeling of sadness, you know, and compassion, and not being able to cry in front of jury, but being able to let them know that I was right there with them. It takes some skill to do this because I can't cry in front of a jury. I can't have my, you know, I cannot lose my lawyer part, but I can bring out the human part. And so as I was watching it, you could hear my little questions. And what I remember about that is how often the interpreters were crying in that case. Um because of being able to do that thing. But it is walking a lot of lines to be able to be human and compassionate, but also to stay completely professional. So that's what we have to do, even when we know that we're marching towards the doom of a loss in our case. But yeah, that's one reason why I got sick afterwards, I think, is because there was so much of that not being able to release that expression of emotion.

Mo Hamoudi:

Um I yeah, so I will say this that the anticipation of loss doesn't drive my emotions to come out. What drives my emotions to come out in a courtroom is is That's a good one, of course. You know, is that is that is the moment is just the moment. I have been in courtrooms where the moment just takes me. And then I almost feel like I've come out of my body. I'm like almost not even in my own body, and I will connect to what I'm hearing and like my client's story. And then it, you know.

Karen Koehler :

It sounds to me like you know, you press you repress part of yourself in trial, like you are ruthless, you are, you know, you have that rascal quality, but then the other parts of you are not allowed in. Well I will I will this was this was coded language. I got him, by the way.

Mo Hamoudi:

Okay.

Karen Koehler :

See, I feel like I'm more whole when I'm in trial than you are.

Mo Hamoudi:

You are better than me.

Karen Koehler :

No, no, no, no. No, no, that's not what I'm saying. I have insider knowledge. I feel like I'm I'm more I'm more connected as a overall, whereas you're more you're more selective in who is actually going into trial.

Mo Hamoudi:

Well, I don't have a multiple personality disorder. Yeah, but I do have sides to me. I have the ruthless side, I have the rascal side, and I have the little side.

Karen Koehler :

Yeah.

Mo Hamoudi:

And the little side is the child in me is the best part of me.

Karen Koehler :

Uh-huh.

Mo Hamoudi:

And he does come to court sometimes.

Karen Koehler :

When uh you just said sometimes.

Mo Hamoudi:

He does come to court sometimes.

Karen Koehler :

How often?

Mo Hamoudi:

It depends on the moment. The moment calls for him to come out. How often? He speaks a truth that, in my opinion, grips the entire courtroom. And everybody pays attention.

Karen Koehler :

Well, you'll have to think of some examples of that because it's not that I don't believe you, but I don't believe you.

Mike Todd:

As we talk about this stuff, I I'm curious. I know that Karen, you often write about your trials while it's going on, so you might remember more. But do you guys feel like when you disconnect a little bit like that, that you can't remember?

Karen Koehler :

So I don't I don't disconnect.

Mo Hamoudi:

Okay.

Karen Koehler :

And I and I write my trials out because I uh just you know, the parts that I feel I can, because it is cathartic, and then I want to start the new day fresh.

Mike Todd:

Yeah. But which in a way is getting rid of some of that difficult energy that to me it's all it comes out.

Karen Koehler :

I don't feel like at the end of a day that I have been uh emotionally repressed because I'm able to process every every single day. I get to process it. And the writing does help me process it. My trial diaries, which people think I'm crazy to write, like how do you have time? And I don't, it just flows out of me really fast. For Mo, I challenge him on this.

Mike Todd:

Well, I mean, he just said that he sort of separates stuff. So in a way, you gotta disconnect a little bit.

Karen Koehler :

He does. You I think you're more separated than you think.

Mo Hamoudi:

I I am I am more, I agree that I'm separated. I think that um I think where I'm in my process of developing is just a human being.

Karen Koehler :

And a whole different type of law, you know.

Mike Todd:

And a whole different type of law.

Karen Koehler :

A whole different buttons.

Mike Todd:

I mean, we never really approached that. You've only been doing plenty of things.

Karen Koehler :

This is a whole different type of years.

Mike Todd:

Two and a half years.

Karen Koehler :

This is so completely different.

Mo Hamoudi:

Yeah. Um, I what I what I've what I've started to pick up on is that um I mean, this is hard. I mean, it's really hard for me to talk about this because it's it's it's a really personal side of me. Well, don't do it. No, I don't mind talking about it. And it's hard hard for me to articulate, is that this has to do with a part of me that endured an incredible lot of things. Well, and that's how, I mean, I think that's how. You become who you are, you know, obviously. And I think he but I think I I really am coming to a a thesis that that is the best part of me and will be the best lawyer in the courtroom. And trying to marshal him out in a way that I think that I really think is going to speak truth in ways that really need to be spoken is the process I'm in right now.

Karen Koehler :

Let me give you let me give you an example. In the one trial that I tried against you. I mean tried with tried with you, right? And I had you do lay witnesses, a couple lay witnesses.

Mo Hamoudi:

Yeah.

Karen Koehler :

Not quite right. I'm talking about in terms of who you were doing it. I felt like you were more a ruthless mo being gentle.

Mo Hamoudi:

Being ruthless mo being gentle.

Karen Koehler :

Uh-huh. Which doesn't which isn't completely all the way there. Whereas the other one. Okay, I'll take that. Whereas if if you had been, you know, another different persona of yours, I think it would have just not felt like that.

Mo Hamoudi:

Okay. Okay. I don't know. I can't I don't remember what I was feeling. I know that I did connect. I think you're talking about uh It wasn't bad.

Karen Koehler :

Don't get me wrong.

Mo Hamoudi:

No, no, no. I know I know what you're talking about.

Karen Koehler :

It wasn't quite there yet. And I think it will be there. I know it will be there. Because I think we're all in evolution as we're going. And I got 20 years on you, dude.

Mo Hamoudi:

Yeah, yeah. Um I I think that's fair that like in in that civil trial, which was my first civil trial, that what the challenge was.

Karen Koehler :

You asked all the right questions.

Mo Hamoudi:

Yeah, I just I think the challenge was was we're we're we're I think I just by the way, all of this is very new to me. Not even the discipline. Where I am at, spiritually and mentally, I am in a new space and I'm moving through it. And I don't know where the hell I'm gonna end up. You want to talk about the anticipation of loss?

Mike Todd:

It's not knowing what's gonna happen at all.

Mo Hamoudi:

You want to talk about the anticipation of loss? The anticipation of a loss of a part of me as I go through this evolution, that's freaking scary because I have known myself to be a person. I have re-examining my relationships, re-examining my entire life.

Karen Koehler :

Well, this is a good segue because we talked about the anticipation of loss in the law. Well, let's talk about the anticipation of loss in life. And let's make Mike go first.

Mo Hamoudi:

Yes. Mike, you've got yes, Mike.

Mike Todd:

Anticipation of loss. I guess let me go back a little ways. Oh yeah. Now I got something.

Karen Koehler :

Um, wait a minute. I know the ultimate one. You just had to have a life-altering Oh yeah.

Mike Todd:

Heart surgery, I guess you could do that one. But I know. Yeah, no, that was pretty big because I was I was concerned that I might not wake up. Yeah.

Karen Koehler :

Yes. That's an anticipation of the that was a big one.

Mike Todd:

It's interesting too because I wrote a post on Facebook about that, and uh I just had I just saw someone the other day, this weekend on Saturday, and uh it was a a guy that was in used to be in another band that we used to play with a lot. My friend was dating his sister's friend, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he recently got diagnosed with a brain tumor and was going through the same kind of thing. And he said, I went back and read your post again, and it really helped me a lot. And I was like, that was why I wrote this. I mean, partially it was, you know, the release of it myself, right? You know, I wrote that just a few days before I went in for surgery. And uh I I I really did, I really was thinking, like, God, I hope that somebody that I know can read this and, you know, work through that same type of situation. Um, but I mean, I just had to kind of give myself, I had to like let everything go. I couldn't, you know, I can't, I couldn't change anything about it, other than saying I wasn't gonna have the surgery or something like that, which then would at the time, you know, I was 50% chance that I could die at any time, any day, walking around. Um so had I gone, I was already over what the estimates are for how long you should wait in that situation. So had I chosen not to do it, it was a death sentence pretty much. Um so yeah, that I I had to I had to sort of and and that's the the way that I dealt with it there is the way that I've always dealt with it. Because I think back to when I was working on the road with bands, and you know, the last two bands that I woke worked for broke up while I was on the road. Yeah. While I was I mean, I was on the East Coast for both of them, so I was 3,000 miles away from where I live. Um you don't get a paycheck when that happens in the rock world. You just you you know it's done. It's done. So I'm you know, a long way away from home, no money, they don't give you a ticket home or anything like that. You're responsible for everything you do. So uh I, you know, I the the last one I knew I knew it was all coming. Like that was one where just like you guys talking about being in a trial and and pretty much knowing that it's gonna end in a loss, like the singer of the band got in front of a crowd of probably five to ten thousand people and got them all to chant the F word to their record label while one of their label reps was filming it and then took it to the owner of the label the next day, and we were dropped from the label the day after that. They pulled all of our tour support, and I was tasked with getting the band and their bus back to Baltimore from Maine with no money. Oh wow. Not not no money for me, no money for anything. Um, so I mean, seeing that kind of loss, knowing that that was gonna happen, I just go into automatic fix everything mode. I mean, I shut down all my emotions and only think about the tasks that I have. And uh I mean, in that situation, I did that. I got I did everything that I had to do to sit back. I said goodbye to the band and I hopped on a train and went to New York to meet my wife. And then we figured out what we were gonna do after that. When I had my heart surgery, it was a little different because I can't control any of that other than just going, okay, I'm gonna wait, see if I wake up. And I mean, that's exactly what it was like. I remember kind of a little bit of when they said count back a little bit or something like that, count to 50. And I think I got to like three, and then I woke up and I had a bunch of tubes in my mouth and uh stuff sticking out of my chest. And my wife said that they took like three or four times to bring me back.

Mo Hamoudi:

Jesus.

Mike Todd:

They actually had to put yeah, they had to put me back under a couple of times.

Karen Koehler :

So uh it sounds like shedding shut off the kind kind of commonality we hear here is you just gotta keep going. Yeah you whatever it takes, whether it's shutting off your emotions Well, you can't stop.

Mike Todd:

That's the thing. If you stop, then you've lost for sure.

Karen Koehler :

Yeah.

Mike Todd:

Yeah.

Karen Koehler :

You gotta keep going.

Mike Todd:

And it is, I mean, in in most of the situations, uh unless you're talking about personal stuff, it's your job.

Mo Hamoudi:

Yeah. You sound like a trial lawyer, Mike. I mean, you know, but you know, what thing I picked up on was the difference between control and being control of the situation and not being in control of the situation, which is the medical situation. You didn't have control over it. No. What was that like?

Mike Todd:

Oh, it's hard. I mean, I I I waited for a long time because the main thing that they do in the in the situation for what I had is monitoring your symptoms, and they say, like, when you get certain symptoms, that's when you got to come in and make the decision. Well, I mean, after I finally went, I'd been seeing a cardiologist for a while, but I didn't really know that I was having symptoms, and it was a case where like I the stuff that they said to me felt like what my life had always been like. So I didn't realize that I was as bad as I was, and they only do certain diagnostic tests, so they could see the progression and stuff, but as long as I wasn't having symptoms, they were like, You're young, don't have surgery yet. Um and then when I finally decided to, they were like, Well, here's your options. Some of which I mean I had spent a lot of time on Google. It's I think it was a seven, it was seven or eight years before I got the surgery from when I was diagnosed. So I I had done what I thought was a lot of research, and I was positive that there was only a couple options of what I could do, and I was wrong. They came up that I ended up having a surgery that I didn't think I was it was possible for me to have. And so far it's worked out really well. But uh, I mean, it was a total shutdown, is what I did. I just kind of was like, I can't let my emotions come into this anymore. I gotta go and let the doctors do what they do and stop definitely not think that I know more than them.

Mo Hamoudi:

Yeah.

Mike Todd:

But uh, I mean, it was a long process, and I put it off for a long time for that very reason. Because I was afraid, I guess.

Karen Koehler :

No.

Mike Todd:

I'm really happy you're here with us. Thank you. I'm happy to be here too.

Karen Koehler :

Thanks for that dismal topic.

Mo Hamoudi:

I mean, come on. We'll have to make a anticipation more loss. A more positive one for this. What's the positive, what's the opposite of loss? Uh he's alive. Winning. Winning. Okay. So next we do the anticipation of a win. Sounds good. I know those. Those are fun. Okay, well. All right. Okay.

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Karen Koehler

Co-host
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Mo Hamoudi

Co-host

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