Mansplaining, Mo-Splaining, and the Space Between Talking and Listening

Episode 42: Mansplaining, Mo-Splaining, and the Space Between Talking and Listening

A heated phone call about “mansplaining” turns into a sharp, funny, and honest look at listening, ego, and the thin line between protecting and dominating.

Karen calls Mo out. Mo defends himself. Mike plays referee. Together they retrace the argument, name the habit (hello, “Mo-splaining”), and unpack why good intentions can still sound like lectures when you fill every silence with solutions. Sometimes the smartest move isn’t to fix—it’s to listen.

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Hosted by Karen Koehler and Mo Hamoudi, trial lawyers at Stritmatter Law, a nationally recognized plaintiff personal injury and civil rights law firm based in Washington State.

Produced by Mike Todd, Audio & Video Engineer, and Kassie Slugić, Executive Producer.

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Transcript

Mo Hamoudi 0:06

Yeah, so I got something to explain.

Karen Koehler 0:09

Mo got very mad at me last week. I mean, I thought he was gonna start crying. He was so angry.

Mike Todd 0:17

What did what did you do to him?

Karen Koehler 0:19

Well, I had told him something, I can't even remember what. And I was just explaining to him that X had happened in a sequence, a long sequence of events. It was case related. And then he proceeded to start talking to me about, well, you know, this had happened, and then this had happened, and then, you know, but this would do it. And then and I just said, your man's blaming me.

Mo Hamoudi 0:47

No, she didn't say it like that. I did. No, you were you said it not you you sound like you said it with like a sense of tenderness. No. Your man's blaming me. No, you said, I'm gonna hang up the phone if you just keep talking like this.

Karen Koehler 1:02

I did not. Basically I'm just gonna hang up. Such a dramatic. That's you Mike, you know me. There's no way I did. He's so dramatic.

Mike Todd 1:12

You were like, you're boring.

Karen Koehler 1:14

I heard his little feelings so badly.

Mike Todd 1:16

You're boring me.

Karen Koehler 1:17

Oh, I did say, I did tell him he I did say that. I explained it. Like, your man explaining, you're boring me. And okay, I did say that he was boring.

Mike Todd 1:25

Can I ask them, did you but did you ask him to start this process? He just he just rolled into it, so it was true.

Karen Koehler 1:32

This is what I wanted him to say. Wait, like guys! This is all I wanted him to say was like, yeah, they're so irritating, or yeah, are you you know, are you upset about that? Or I just wanted him to like say And what did you do, Mo?

Mo Hamoudi 1:47

What did you do?

Mike Todd 1:48

Lay out your defense.

Mo Hamoudi 1:49

My defenses, my defense is okay. My defense was no defense. There is a defense. There is a defense.

Karen Koehler 1:57

Absolutely not. In fact, this is what he did. After he was done.

Mo Hamoudi 2:01

Give him a chance. Give him a chance. I'm being deprived of process. I'm being deprived of my rights.

Karen Koehler 2:07

He went and looked it up and started whining that that's not what mansplaining was. Look it up!

Mike Todd 2:12

No, that's you didn't even look at it all there.

Karen Koehler 2:15

Yes, you did. You read the definition to me, and it said it had a negative motive. You were trying to that he was trying to dominate or put his will on me or something like that. It had a it had a negative animus.

Mike Todd 2:28

Well, that's the way that I understand mansplaining is when and I believe it can be great. I believe it can be either sides, but it's defined by a man forcing his opinion by explaining the entire situation to typically a woman in an attempt to prove their point. Okay. Is that how you believe it, Karen?

Karen Koehler 3:01

To prove that even prove everybody's point, prove the woman's.

Mike Todd 3:04

Well, no, to prove everyone else wrong is what I'm saying. Like it's it's dominating the conversation like I am right now.

What Mansplaining Means And Why It Stings

Karen Koehler 3:11

Or that, you know, like as if the women hadn't even spoken. Like they did they they just prove the point from however what I told Bo, in addition to saying that he was manspiating and boring, I did say something nice.

Mike Todd 3:23

Okay.

Karen Koehler 3:23

I told him, after he read the description to me, because he did look it up, I said, Well, you have a good motive. I don't I'm not saying you have a bad motive. So if I if that word hurts your feelings, I will use a different word. And then I couldn't think of a different word, and neither could he for about 15 minutes.

Mo Hamoudi 3:40

Fair. Fair.

Karen Koehler 3:41

Okay, Mo, we are done. Go ahead. You may have the floor.

Mo Hamoudi 3:45

It wasn't mansplaining, it was mo splaning.

Mike Todd 3:48

Mo splaining. Yes. Now you're creating a new term.

Mo Hamoudi 3:51

No, it it's mo splaining. It it it if you know me, you know that my splaining is no mansplaining. And I ain't no mansplainer, but I'm a mo splainer. What I did was this is that the story she was telling me, Mike.

Karen Koehler 4:07

Look at Mike's face.

Mike Todd 4:09

Do you want me to give you another shovel?

Mo Hamoudi 4:14

I haven't even I haven't even made my case. Look at you. Look at Mike's case.

Mike Todd 4:18

I see you digging the hole right now. But let me let me make my okay, go ahead. Okay, throw some more dirt.

Karen Koehler 4:28

I don't even have to do anything. Mike's doing it for you. Wait, okay.

Mike Todd 4:32

All right. I just like that I'm not on this on his side of this discussion.

Mo Hamoudi 4:38

Okay. The story that was told to me is a story where I felt deeply that the case related, it involved a lawyer in a case, it's a contentious case, was disrespecting her. Okay? And and it was from a place of like I was upset that this lawyer continues to disrespect her. So I spoke up in more of a instinct to be uh protective, an instinct to say this isn't right. And so I mo explained how this lawyer.

Introducing “Mo-Splaining”

Karen Koehler 5:22

What is most blaming? Just just define it for us. It's Mo define as Mo explaining.

Mo Hamoudi 5:28

It's Mo explaining to somebody what they already know.

Karen Koehler 5:32

What they already know or what they already said.

Mo Hamoudi 5:34

What no his interpretation. No, what it's Mo explaining and announcing with some authority that there is an injustice happening to their dear friend, and so saying it out loud. No. So that they know that that this is happening.

Karen Koehler 5:53

No, there's also a and this is what you should do, and this is what you should do element to it. Admit it, Mo.

Mo Hamoudi 5:59

Okay, give it to me. What is it?

Karen Koehler 6:02

That's it.

Mo Hamoudi 6:03

What element?

Karen Koehler 6:04

That you there's this is what you should do.

Mo Hamoudi 6:07

Okay, yes. There was there was instruction attached to the extra and hold up, okay.

Karen Koehler 6:15

Mike, do I need help fighting my own battles?

Mike Todd 6:20

I think you don't think you do.

Karen Koehler 6:23

But he does.

Mike Todd 6:25

Think that you need help?

Karen Koehler 6:27

Well, he gives it whether I ask for it or not.

Mike Todd 6:29

Yeah. And I don't think that that's a bad thing. I think that you should expect accept some of that.

Karen Koehler 6:36

Oh my god. Whose side are you on? Yes, you're flip-flopping.

Mike Todd 6:40

I'm not flip-flopping. I am I am saying that uh I believe that the mansplaining may have come from a place an intent of good.

Karen Koehler 6:53

I do it, but that's what I said. It does. So I definitely agree. There is no malice in here. There is no No no I know. But yet he's still He was still doing it. He good mansplains.

Mike Todd 7:05

Yes.

Karen Koehler 7:05

Okay, that's the definition of a most plain. It's a good mansplain. It's a good intent.

Mike Todd 7:10

It's not coming from the intent of trying to say I'm correct. It was more, I believe, trying to explain his position. Yes. Um but it's very close, and I think that those two things cross over a lot.

Karen Koehler 7:23

And and you know, he says, well, if you know me, well, a lot of people know you, and a lot of people know you as a most splainer.

Mike Todd 7:30

Yeah.

Karen Koehler 7:33

How do you how so there you can also I can be a Karen explainer? I just don't do it as much as you do.

Mo Hamoudi 7:40

I mean, okay, this is uh uh uh a trait I wear with honor. I wear it with honor because I mean think about it, because I'm most splaining in court all the time.

Karen Koehler 7:53

Okay, but let's back up. Okay, let's be honest here.

Mo Hamoudi 7:55

I'll be honest.

Karen Koehler 7:56

Once I told you that, okay, let's go back to that day. So I told you that you're mansplainer.

Mo Hamoudi 8:01

Yes.

Karen Koehler 8:02

How angry were you?

Mo Hamoudi 8:03

I was so angry. Because to me, mansplaining is negative, is like you're condescending. I was not condescending to you. I was not condescending to you, Karen. There is not an even Iota condescension with it. So, like, to me, it's almost like, what? You think that was a mansplaining?

Karen Koehler 8:25

And how angry were how angry were you for?

Intent Versus Impact In Communication

Mo Hamoudi 8:27

What do you mean? How how how long were you angry for? I was angry for like I had to go, I had a presentation, I had to present to a bunch of lawyers for an hour and a half, and this is like right before my presentation, and she gets me all jacked up angry, and I'm just like, I'm like so angry. I was angry for like 30 minutes.

Karen Koehler 8:47

No, you were angry for like you were still angry the next day.

Mo Hamoudi 8:50

I was still angry the next day. I was still angry the next day. Okay.

Karen Koehler 8:54

I think I'm still a little angry.

Mo Hamoudi 8:56

Okay, and I think that's like it's a PTSD.

Karen Koehler 8:58

Okay, whatever. Let me ask you this. After you could see through the anger, that I mean, I mean, it was a couple days past.

Mo Hamoudi 9:06

Yeah. Okay.

Karen Koehler 9:08

Did you start looking at yourself and wondering if you were most planing in interactions with other people? Be honest. Including your own family members.

Mo Hamoudi 9:19

Yes.

Karen Koehler 9:20

What did you decide?

Mo Hamoudi 9:22

I decide I most plan a lot. I do. I am a most planer.

Karen Koehler 9:28

Okay, and I'm not saying that that's a terrible thing.

Mo Hamoudi 9:31

Yeah.

Karen Koehler 9:31

Okay. But what did what are some of your what are some of the things that you realize that might happen if you if you withhold a little bit more?

Mo Hamoudi 9:41

I think that sometimes, you know, I mean, m Kathy, my wife, does not like that I do this. She says she does not like that I do this. And she has said this to me. The most blaming. Yeah, for years she has said this to me. And she said, sometimes I don't want you to fix it. I just want you to shut the hell up and listen.

Karen Koehler 10:04

Okay, so when I said that to you, it was not something new.

Mo Hamoudi 10:07

No, it wasn't anything new.

Karen Koehler 10:10

Alrighty then. What do you think about that, Mike?

Mike Todd 10:13

But I guess I want to get more to the I mean, because I do the same thing that Mo does. I would say that I explain stuff, not from a condescending point, though I have done that plenty of times in the past.

Karen Koehler 10:27

Me too.

Mike Todd 10:28

I've just tried, I as I've gotten older, and the more that people said that to me, you know, um, especially my wife. I mean, it was it's a tool that I used to use in arguments all the time. Um not even just mansplaining, and that's why I was gonna ask this question.

Karen Koehler 10:45

Yeah.

Mike Todd 10:45

Do you do that sometimes because that's you working out the idea in your head and you just have to say it out loud?

Mo Hamoudi 10:53

Yeah, I mean, in specific with what the interaction with her was, is is that I was she expressed to me what I perceived to be her being completely disrespected. And then so, like, that because she's my partner, I work with her, and like that bothered me. I immediately went into this, like, well, that's not right, and then I started to verbalize and recount to her what she had described to me in all of its horrid details, and then I said, This what this is what must be done.

Mike Todd 11:32

And that's and that's where you crossed into mansplaining. That's for me, the the process of going through that kind of stuff is something that I have to do sometimes just to make sure that I have the facts straight before I try to formulate whatever my response is gonna be. Yeah. Um and like I said, it used to drive my wife crazy. Yeah.

Karen Koehler 11:55

How did you stop doing it?

Anger, Ego, And Feeling Misread

Mike Todd 11:57

Uh well, I I've tried to, but I can't entirely. It just happens automatically sometimes. Um and I've stopped doing it. I've formulated those ideas more as kind of a question where I'm referencing stuff before, as opposed to saying this is the answer at the end. It's more like this is kind of what I think I would want to do, as opposed to saying this is the only answer. Because that's where you're crossing in to saying that you know all the answers, and that's what's wrong.

Karen Koehler 12:37

Why do you think it drives your wife's crazy?

Mike Todd 12:40

Like, why why do you think oh, because I used it maliciously on purpose in the past. I mean, it was a tool to win fights, which it can be. It can be used badly. But I chose to stop doing that. I you know, that was years of us working over the arguments and you know, the problems that we had with each other. That takes a long time. Yeah. Some people I mean, that's the thing. Like I've been we've been together a long time. Some people don't make it this far because they can't make it through those kind of problems.

Karen Koehler 13:14

I mean, that's really I mean, obviously, we've already talked about how uh much we admire your relationship. And I that that had been hard because that's a habit.

Mike Todd 13:26

Yeah, no, it's hard. And I can't, like I said, I I I still do that stuff, but I don't do it. I definitely don't choose to do it these times. Like it happens more as a natural thing, and I typically recognize it pretty quickly and try to back off and not I try to, I I in general with any area interactions anymore, I I try to like stop acting like I know everything because I used to feel that you know I knew a lot of stuff and I did. But that doesn't mean you know everything, and you don't know every situation, and you don't know how everyone's gonna act. And you know, you get older and you get a little wiser and realize that that's stuff that young people do. Act act too fast sometimes. I think they know everything. Yeah, I think you have all the answers. Sometimes you're right, but you know, I wasn't all the time.

From Fixing To Listening At Home

Mo Hamoudi 14:24

I mean, I think part of it is that what is that is the emotional space that with Kathy, it's like she needs the emotional space to fill the space, and I'm occupying this space. And when I occupy the space, it deprives her of the opportunity to be present. I think that's what my blind spot is. My instinct is completely driven because of Neanderthal instincts of like, I'm a man, I need to protect, I need to fix, I need to do these things. These are like some of the inherent qualities that I possess. And a lot of it's cultural, coming from the Middle East. It's just in me, it's just the male role has always been like, there's a problem, I fix. You need protection, I protect. It is, it drives who I am. That's a hard part of me to dispel. All I have been able to do is make it a well-intentioned quality, right? But I it's hard for me to get rid of this quality. It is so inherent in who I am, is to instinctually jump in and do things. So, you know, but when somebody tells me, you know, you know, I've and this is why I got angry. I think I realize now. I think I got angry because like it's like saying, like, hey, you know that instinct you have to do those things? It's not, I don't want it. I don't need it. And you're like, wait, you don't need me? You don't want me? Like, that's the part where I think I get I got angry. Because I think, like, no, that's the best part of me.

Mike Todd 16:05

Well, but you also know that some of it's wrong. Yes. And deep down inside, when you get in that argument and somebody tells you you're wrong, you want to say, no, I'm not. No, I'm right. Even though you know you're wrong. That's fair, Mike. I mean, it's the same, it's the same. Trust me, your reaction to another attorney treating one of our attorneys wrong is the same way that I react to it every single time I hear about it. I want to run out of this building, go to their office, kick them in the face. Yeah.

Karen Koehler 16:37

You know, God, I just love I mean, do I I love violence, apparently, but I just love the way he said that. Yeah. It's just a great visual.

Mike Todd 16:47

That's my reaction. And it's totally wrong. You don't do that. That's not how you act in society. But but you know what? Part of that has always been my character. Like, you know, when I started in music, I wanted to break all the rules. I don't believe that men need to be freaking aggro all the time to actually be strong. And most people don't believe that. But, you know, that's part, like you said, that's part of historically what a man is considered. Yes. A protector, a hunter, yeah, a fighter.

Mo Hamoudi 17:21

Yeah.

Mike Todd 17:21

You know? Yeah. That's what we're supposed to be. So then, you know, as you get older, everyone goes, now don't do that.

Mo Hamoudi 17:30

Yeah.

Mike Todd 17:30

Don't be that way. That's not the way. That's not polite society, you don't do that in. That's right. That's right. But really, deep down inside, all the guys want to do that. Yeah, that's right. Because that's part of what's been driven into us both physiologically and sociologically. Yeah. You know? Yeah.

Mo Hamoudi 17:49

Yeah.

Mike Todd 17:49

And what's wrong with that?

Karen Koehler 17:51

You can control your Neanderthal behavior. Well, yeah.

Mike Todd 17:55

There you go.

Karen Koehler 17:56

Um, but let me know.

Mike Todd 17:57

It's not even control it. It's it's it's changing.

Karen Koehler 18:00

Yeah, you have to acknowledge it and first.

Mike Todd 18:02

Yes.

Karen Koehler 18:03

And and you can even acknowledge it. You're like looking it up in on the dictionary.

Mike Todd 18:07

This is not the also ingrained in us because we're always right.

Karen Koehler 18:12

Yeah.

Mike Todd 18:13

Mimo. And I would say that's you too, Karen. Like you exhibit a lot of these things as well.

Karen Koehler 18:18

I mean, I do. I mean, I haven't the older I've gotten, it hasn't changed the fact that I think I'm right almost all the time.

Mike Todd 18:25

But you just you're more conscious of it now, right?

Karen Koehler 18:28

Uh am I? Um, you know, I'm also in a position where I get to boss everyone around. Yes. So I'm in that position. But my suggestion is always I mean, the only thing that ever helps me change my behavior is to get out of my body and look at it like how would I feel if someone does this to me? And I don't like it, obviously. So even when I'm telling him he's a mansplainer, I'm thinking, yeah, I do the same thing. I gotta like not do it.

Mike Todd 18:59

You know, so exactly don't point the light at me.

Karen Koehler 19:02

Yeah. So it mansplaining is, you know, it is kind of a derogatory term, but it's it's it's correct. Now you can say I've been Karen splained, I've been Mo splained, I've been Mike splained, and that's all accurate and probably the better way to do it. But Karen's planing goes on day in and day out.

Mike Todd 19:23

Oh, I know it does. I didn't bring that up until now, but I know.

Karen Koehler 19:26

In fact, I I have something that Karen explained to you after this, so I'm gonna go up to show you.

Mike Todd 19:31

Awesome.

Reframing Advice As Questions

Karen Koehler 19:33

But yeah, I mean, I don't want you to feel like you're you're alone in this because you're not. But for me, some of the takeaways are this is my number one takeaway, especially in the workplace. People, women, but anybody will complain about someone, especially new. Like let's say you come into a new environment. Yeah, they don't know you, they don't know your intentions, or you know, you're out at a function, whatever. That person doesn't know you, they don't know where your heart is or where this is coming from. And they meet someone like you, they're making some comment, and then you jump in and you muswane, right? They're not gonna think, oh, this is just from the goodness of his heart. They're gonna think how all of us think about people that we don't know. Yeah, which is we're kind of prejudiced. We're all prejudiced. We we make all these generalities of people that we don't know until we start to know them, then they get colored in, we understand where they're coming from. But otherwise, there's you're you're you're dealing with prejudice. You're an alpha male with a big voice who talks a lot in a domineering fashion, right? And so they're gonna think and a poet, but they don't know you, right? Remember, let's you go into a situation where people aren't gonna know you, yeah, especially like a jury. Let's just say you go into a jury. Yeah. You can't do that with Seattle juries. I've learned that. If you see me in trial, I am absolutely not a male explainer. I am there is no co-care explaining about it. I am intentional. That's why I know that you can, it's a learned behavior. You can you can deal with this.

Mike Todd 21:12

Is that different in other places?

Karen Koehler 21:14

It is because your guard is down. Like my whole focus is on persuasion, keeping a communication channel completely open, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Now, do I emancipline Loris? Loris, I mean, that t that t-shirt has a spaghetti sauce stain on it and a hole. Can I get you another one? Because you don't look good in it. Okay, you do look good in it. But can you please just change it? I mean, yes, I I am bossy. I am not just a Karen Splaner, I'm a bossy. So I have a whole lot of stuff, and a lot of people aren't gonna like that about me. And and at and at 65 years old, I'm okay with that. I don't I'm not looking for people to like me anymore. I don't care.

Mike Todd 21:59

You've gotten to where you don't care what other people think.

Karen Koehler 22:01

Yeah.

Mike Todd 22:02

And that's something that happens with age.

Karen Koehler 22:04

It does.

Mike Todd 22:05

I mean, I hit that a few years ago. It was it's kind of an epiphany in a way, where it's like, oh shit, that stuff doesn't matter anymore.

Karen Koehler 22:12

It doesn't. But you know, what I'm really bossy about is I like my stuff the way I like it. I'm a trial lawyer, I'm a control freak. That's what trial lawyers do. I need to have it this, this, this, and this, and this. So, uh but people that don't know you, they will they just will form judgments that you know are bigoted. They're they're bigoted because they just think this is a very important thing.

Mike Todd 22:35

Well, first impressions are usually, you know, whatever is just on face value and and that doesn't get any deeper into something.

Karen Koehler 22:42

Exactly. Remember the blink by m by McDowell, Malcolm, McMah, Malcolm, whatever. That was a whole concept of Malcolm Gladwell? Yeah, I knew it was something like that. Same same thing, right? You it you form the impression instantly. It is bigoted, it is prejudiced. No matter what you do, yeah. Um, you know, it is what it is.

Mike Todd 23:02

You're falling into the you're you're looking at the stereotype more than anything else.

Culture, Gender Roles, And Protection Instincts

Karen Koehler 23:05

And it doesn't, I'm not even just talking about a person, any kind of it's that's it, until you get to know it a little bit, and then you can see the different and differentiate it and all of that. So for me, if you know me, you know me. And you should by now know where I come from, and that yes, it's a place of good. But if you don't know me or you don't like me, then I'm just gonna irritate the hell out of you because this is the way I am, and I'm okay with that. I'm actually fine with that. It served me well. What I have that you guys don't have is my the the bigoted lens is way more complex for me because I do not fit that stereotype. Like I am I am a female, so I'm a female, I'm an alpha female, I'm aggressive, although I'm a soft package, and so people are gonna say, Oh, they're gonna attribute some stuff to me that is not attributed to you. You guys fit the stereotype. You're a dude. You're explaining to me, you're mansplaining to me, and it's good intention. That's it easy. It's one one one adjustment to the odd concept of mansplaining. Yes, they're mansplaining, but it's from a good intention, right? But for me, they're looking at me, and I'm not the stereotype. And so they're looking at me and they're thinking, Wow, she is a bad person. She is not a normal person. She has, she wants to be in control of everyone, she wants to dominate you, she wants to, you know, all the negative stuff that you've ever heard about me comes from those kind of places.

Mo Hamoudi 24:40

Well, I be I think it goes back to like the instinct of what drives me to do it is that I've been traditionally celebrated for um what I accomplish, not who I am. But women are looked at for who they are, not what they accomplish. And I think that's where where I think that right there what you just said is where the bias is, is that people don't look and don't celebrate women for what they accomplish.

Karen Koehler 25:10

I mean, obviously this is all generalities.

Mo Hamoudi 25:12

There's generalities, but I'm talking about generally speaking, the problem with gender bias, my view, most planing.

Karen Koehler 25:23

He's so scared now to get it. I just walked into it, I just walked into it.

Mike Todd 25:27

I would like to point out that your view doesn't have to be mansplaining. And I I also think that I mean that's the thing, like it gets confused, I feel like sometimes. But I also think that people who tend towards that like to describe everything. So it's like you want to tell the whole story where you don't need to do that all the time. And that's one of the things that I keep trying to learn. It's like I don't need to give all the freaking facts to something and lay it all out in such a way that you're creating, you know, a vision board that everyone has to use as a map for the conversation.

Mo Hamoudi 26:10

Yeah.

Mike Todd 26:11

Like that doesn't actually have to happen. You can you can you can edit that stuff down to a couple sentences as opposed to having to have multiple paragraphs.

Karen Koehler 26:19

Mike, this is such an important part because Darien, our firm coach, you know, sh we have our attorney meetings used to be like five or six hours long. Now they're three. We still think they're a little bit long. But one once a month we'd have the massive attorney meeting, it would take all day long. We'd get fed breakfast and lunch and a snack. I mean, it went all day. And I talked to her about um, how do you control as a leader, which I am, when somebody wants to talk so much. They're dominating. Like, how do you stop? How do you how and one of the things that she told me, one of the techniques is, or one of the problems, is there's a certain type of personality that always starts at the beginning. Even though we talked about it the last meeting, and everybody knows what case you're gonna do. They have to go back and do the week. Start at the beginning. And and she said, You need to tell them not to start at the beginning. So I have to actually interrupt some people and say, We've we've heard this, you know, we heard this last week. Can you start right here? And it it's you know, other people are appreciative because they know what I just did, but I feel kind of you know sad that I have to do it because none of it's ill-intentioned. But you don't have to start at the beginning and reframe it through your own magnificent voice.

Mike Todd 27:44

Yes. And you don't have like I like like I had just said, you don't have to have you don't have to lay everything out every single time.

Karen Koehler 27:52

And then for someone like me who's very impatient, then then I'll tell him, and I've been saying this, I was like, well, you're boring me. And he just gets so mad. But it's like my shock treatment of like, I already know all this. We've already been down this road. Why are you telling me this all again? I don't need to hear it. But he it helps his ment it's remember, and also his mind isn't as fast as mine, so he wants to catch up by replaying it all in his mind. No.

Mike Todd 28:26

I feel like it was giving you enough rope to handle yourself with it.

Karen Koehler 28:31

I just I needed to give him more conversation.

Mo Hamoudi 28:38

Okay, okay, okay, okay.

Mike Todd 28:43

I will say this a suggestion that I have. Instead of saying you're boring me, you could try. Do you think you could edit a little more?

Karen Koehler 28:52

I could, but it wouldn't be as it wouldn't get that reaction.

Bias, First Impressions, And Courtroom Strategy

Mike Todd 28:54

I know you're not getting the reaction that you want. I'm saying you could soften the blow a little bit.

Karen Koehler 29:01

And I do, and I normally do, but you know.

Mike Todd 29:04

I know. I also want to like shock factor has something.

Karen Koehler 29:08

I am a provocative person because I want to be entertained. I we we have this very solemn job, and it's like I'm bored.

Mike Todd 29:14

I would it's good to throw a little fun in.

Karen Koehler 29:16

Yeah. It's true. We have a lawyer right now. I'm getting ready for this trial. This lawyers, these lawyers in this office are so I can't even say the word because it's not a good thing. Well, I think you've shown I think I've seen some of the and all it does that that just extreme negative and the stupid, it just makes me it just lights us on fire. Like Kristen right now, she is just so eager. Like, what's the next letter? You know, Andrew's like, where's the bring out the popcorn, you know? And that's what we do is you gotta create some little bit of drama moments.

Mike Todd 29:49

Yeah.

Karen Koehler 29:50

I mean it's fun with it. Yeah.

Mike Todd 29:52

So I mean, this our our jobs can be very depressing. Correct. Not just boring, but like it it I mean, there's I still have stuff from cases that were nineteen years ago. Yeah. You know, that you know, were difficult things to have to look at and difficult things to have to think about. I mean, there's some dark stuff that goes on.

Karen Koehler 30:14

Mo, do you want me to be more polite to you when I tell you that you're No, I don't take myself seriously.

Mo Hamoudi 30:19

You know that.

Karen Koehler 30:20

Oh, well, sometimes you do. Well, Mr. Mirror.

Mo Hamoudi 30:23

Well, I get upset when I am misinterpreted.

Karen Koehler 30:27

You weren't misinterpreted, though.

Mo Hamoudi 30:29

Okay. I could conceded so much today. I gave up a lot, yeah.

Mike Todd 30:34

You did. Okay. I would I would say too, you let it go. So in the end, it was okay. Yeah.

Karen Koehler 30:39

And I was over the top as usual. I didn't do it nicely. I although I did tell him he had a good intent. And I knew that I only did that after he started really, really pouting and I was gonna say you only said that after he reacted.

Mike Todd 30:55

You didn't you didn't lead with that part.

Karen Koehler 30:57

Well, you know, and and the thing about it is by me doing that, I've completely opened myself up for him to start saying that I'm Karen's blamey. Oh, yeah. And and he's welcome to do that. But he's not as fast on the draw as I am yet.

Mike Todd 31:11

Exactly. You gotta you gotta practice there, man. You gotta speed up a little bit.

Karen Koehler 31:16

You can't sword play. Oh. All right, so uh lessons learned. You know, just playing. Be aware.

Mo Hamoudi 31:29

Uh most playing. I would, you know, not to provide uh the as much facts that I think are necessary to provide this large narrative that doesn't need to be brought up. Listen, create space.

Karen Koehler 31:46

Well, I think the create space, let me just say, I think the create space, let's just end with this one. Yeah. That is so common. Yeah. When you are in communication with someone and there is a space to be filled, you're gonna talk. Well, look at me. I can talk, I can talk, I talk to Nala. I talk I talk nonstop all day long. If I'm out running around, I'm talking on the phone. I enjoy it. I'm just a talk talk talker. But if you just talk, then the other person doesn't.

Mike Todd 32:19

Well, yeah, you don't they don't have any time to participate. And then it just be that's where that's where it becomes a mansplain.

Karen Koehler 32:25

Even mentally, like they're like, Yeah, they're just gonna keep talking.

Mike Todd 32:29

No, you just you just get to shut off because the other person's doing everything.

Don’t Start At The Beginning Every Time

Karen Koehler 32:32

So Laura Loris is gonna be listening to this because he's so faithful, he listens to all of it. Let me just say, Loris is such a mansplainer, and I kind of encourage it, um, only at certain times. But the what I really I'll tell you when I really like it. At the end of the day, um, it's mainly when we're on the phone, and I'll say, Well, how was your day? And like, I could put that phone down. In fact, I've actually lost connection with him and come back and he's still talking. And I kind of like it. I want to just my mind just wants to listen to him, tell me about his day. It's not really totally man's money because he's not telling me how to think, but sometimes he will. So nobody's immune from it. And I like people to talk. So I'm not telling you that you should be quiet when you talk to me, but we should all be sensitive to the fact of maybe the other person has something to say too. Yeah. I am bad at that.

Mike Todd 33:30

That's what I was gonna say. It's getting away from mansplaining is learning to let other people have their own voice.

Karen Koehler 33:36

Yes. Yeah. And and it lets other people grow if you let them do that.

Mike Todd 33:41

Yeah. Yeah. That's good, Karen. That's good. That's a good close. Yeah. Great episode.

Karen Koehler 33:47

Of course, you know, I don't do that.

Mike Todd 33:49

Yeah. I'm the exception to this rule.

Karen Koehler 33:51

So I'm, yeah. But I think the okay, the best thing that we can say at the end of it is every single one of us acknowledge that we do this. And I think people in general do this.

Mike Todd 34:02

And acknowledging that you do it.

Karen Koehler 34:05

And communicate. And it's also there's a burden on the other person.

Mike Todd 34:08

Yes.

Karen Koehler 34:09

You need especially if you're a person that you're in a relationship with, other than just meeting them for the first time. I don't think a person that meets you for the first time needs to say, like, you're just completely mansplained. But when you're in a relationship, I think that other person also needs to kind of speak up and say, You're talking over me, and you need to listen.

Mike Todd 34:27

Yeah. Good point.

Karen Koehler 34:30

Okay, who dares to end this conversation with final last words? No one.

Mike Todd 34:35

Not me. I'm not mansplaining anything. Mostly.