The Velvet Hammer™ Podcast

The Privilege of Sacrifice as a Trial Lawyer

• Karen Koehler and Mo Hamoudi • Season 5 • Episode 43

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Episode 44: The Privilege of Sacrifice as a Trial Lawyer

In this episode of The Velvet Hammer™ Podcast, the group sits down with a simple question: Does being great at your work always require sacrifice?  

Karen Koehler opens up about a career shaped by long hours, missed moments, and the constant pressure of leading high-stakes cases. She also names what often goes unsaid: the privilege of choosing sacrifice when so many workers never get that choice. Mo Hamoudi shares how sacrifice shaped him long before he ever stepped into a courtroom, and why he still wakes up before dawn to touch every case. 

Together, they dig into burnout, identity, pace, and what happens when your drive becomes part of your wiring. They also admit a truth most people whisper about; at best, some lawyers can only function around others who work the same way.

If this resonates, follow the show, share it with a friend, and tell us your take. What sacrifice feels worth it to you, and which one will you never give up?

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Hosted by Karen Koehler and Mo Hamoudi, trial lawyers at Stritmatter Law, a nationally recognized plaintiff personal injury and civil rights law firm based in Washington State.

Produced by Mike Todd, Audio & Video Engineer, and Kassie Slugić, Executive Producer.

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Karen Koehler :

I'm going first because you're going to get it wrong. Of course.

Mo Hamoudi:

Surprise, surprise, surprise. Of course I'm going to get it wrong.

Karen Koehler :

All right. So I was reading an article, and I've been thinking about some of these things anyway. Mm-hmm. About sacrifice and your work life. And I've been thinking about that because uh I've heard blowback a little bit from the fact that I've said that in the past. And I actually I tell a lot of people that, and anybody that wants to work for the office, actually. But even just mentoring young or new lawyers, which I've done since the beginning of my career. Like I've always mentored lawyers. I've slowed down as an older lawyer because I just, you know, how do you kind of connect? I don't know that people really connect with me when just coming out of law school. But one thing that that I've always said is there's a lot of lawyers. There's so many. There are thousands and thousands, but there's always going to be room for an exceptional lawyer, for a really good lawyer. But how, you know, there's a difference between a good lawyer, a decent lawyer, an average lawyer, an okay lawyer, and an exceptional lawyer. And what typically is involved is sacrifice. Um, you it's hard to be an exceptional, especially a trial lawyer, if you work from nine to four um for three or four days a week and have a super wonderful life other than that. Like, you know, you can you just have this, you can read books whenever you want. Yeah. You can uh go on any trip you want at any time, you can plan, you know, a year or just a couple weeks in advance to go out of town with your family. Uh, you don't have to worry about running to go meet any kind of athletic activity of your children or to watch a concert of someone you love, performing to support them. Um, it all will just work out. But as a trial lawyer, farthest thing from the truth. First of all, if you're in trial, especially for a long time, you are gonna miss things. You can't go to everything that you would like to go to. Your children's concerts at school in the middle of the workday, for example. You um your your uh free time becomes very, very truncated, even when you're not in trial, just even preparing for trial. And then when you're not preparing for trial, you're managing your other caseload. You can do this, that's why a lot of trial uh lawyers um work as solos because they can manage better their caseload and keep it smaller. But if you have a heavy caseload and a huge practice, you are going to sacrifice. And so that was one thought. And then the other thought that led me to talk about this was we can explore that, but the other thought was I read an article this morning on I can't remember the phrase of it, maybe Mike, you know, um, of these new tech companies which are um on a rush. It reminds me very much of Microsoft in the 80s. Microsoft in the 80s, um everybody slept over. Like they had couches and mattresses, or just they were, they'd stay overnight. They worked around the clock often, and nobody complained because then they could take off, you know, they they'd have these deadlines, and then the deadlines would be over, and then they could go do something, and then they come back and then do it again. And modern wisdom or thought in the offices that are looking for, you know, these young workers is well, they're not willing to sacrifice. Well, not true. According to this article, there's they're saying that there's like a two-year period for these AI companies, these startup AI companies, to really get into the game before the big AI takes over everything and there's not space, and they have reinvigorated um that process, which is it happens already in other countries around the world, uh, not as much in the US as it had been way back in the, you know, Halicon, is that right? Halicon days of Microsoft. Um, but it's happening again, where they're living together, working together, um, nine to nine, nine to eleven, then you wake up at 1 a.m. and you whiteboard uh as a team and you're just working around the clock. Now, do I think that that's a good thing? Uh obviously not, but it's illustrating my point of in order to be excellent, do you have to excel you know, in order to excel, do you have to sacrifice? That's my question of the day. And it's beyond just lawyers. But that's the question. In order to be excellent on a sustained basis, do you have to sacrifice?

Mike Todd:

Mike? No, I'll let you guys go first. I got a few things I gotta pick up to first.

Mo Hamoudi:

Okay, so one thing I don't want to do is like pass judgment on people who are like, hey, I want to just live in the mainstream of work ethic and balance my work life and go travel and do all that. I think that's wonderful.

Karen Koehler :

And a lot of people are like, We're I I'm not living to work.

Mo Hamoudi:

Yeah. That this is not a snipe. This is not a snipe on any of that kind of person.

Karen Koehler :

That's a choice. That's and it's a choice that I highly respect.

Mo Hamoudi:

Yeah. But what my experience in my life has been is that exceptional people.

Karen Koehler :

Not exceptional people.

Mo Hamoudi:

Let me let me let me let me it's you're talking about sacrifice.

Karen Koehler :

I don't want to say exceptional people because that makes the that makes it sound like exceptional people do this and unexceptional. I'm my question is simply: in order to excel at work, do you have to sacrifice?

Mo Hamoudi:

I'm not gonna adopt your framing because I don't see exceptional people as trying to suggest somebody's not something else. Exceptional people to me are just the exception to the rule, exception to the general rule. People who are just exceptions to the rule. I think my experience has been is that that process of sacrifice that exceptional people truly understand and appreciate in pursuing a discipline, a craft, creates a situation, creates an environment where they don't want to be associated with other types of people. And the other types of people don't like to be around people who are the exception to the rule. It just doesn't create an environment where you are moving towards a particular direction in harmony, synchronized. The sacrifice Well, can we pull?

Karen Koehler :

Hold on. That that comment that you just made, which is slightly off topic, but still kind of on, is something I've heard business people speak. Um, you know, probably Cuban or somebody like that, you know, these self-help business people that say stuff, and I've I've heard it said, and I'm not saying it's not correct, that that in order to move to move to the most efficient way to move forward on a work goal is to have like-minded people. Um so people that are going to sacrifice work better with people that are also gonna sacrifice. Yes. And people that aren't gonna sacrifice work better with people that aren't gonna sacrifice.

Mo Hamoudi:

Yeah, because if you're if you're sacrificing, I mean the concept of sacrifice is you're giving something up for something else. And that's a very personal choice. And for whatever reason you're being motivated to do that, either you're alone in that or you're doing that in relationship with others. And organizations that are exceptional organizations, exceptions to the general rule, have groups of people who understand the concept of sacrifice and sacrifice collectively towards a common good.

Karen Koehler :

Okay, so here's my issue. My issue is that you're off topic. You're going to the topic you want, which is workplace. Which is organization. I didn't say workplace. You're talking about how can you make how can you make an exceptional law firm?

Mo Hamoudi:

No, I'm not. I didn't even talk about law firm.

Karen Koehler :

But this is what your goal is. I know it. No, it's not.

Mo Hamoudi:

I'm talking about organizations. I'm talking about organizations.

Karen Koehler :

I'm talking that but I'm not. I'm talking about people.

Mike Todd:

Okay, people. Yes. I think you're talking, I think you're both talking about both of those things.

Karen Koehler :

Oh, he's so even keeled.

Mike Todd:

No. I think that uh from what you started with, which was saying that successful people was the term used early on. Yeah. Tend to have a work a stronger work ethic was where it was going. And saying that doesn't mean that the people that aren't successful don't have a strong work ethic. Correct. Because I would argue that there are people who work much harder than Karen does, than you do, than I do, don't make probably make half what I make a year. And are working multiple jobs all the time, no time off ever, spending all almost all of their hours working. But the way that our economy is set up, those people are never going to be successful in the way that you guys are defining success, because it's not possible for them to rise above where they are.

Karen Koehler :

So basically, we started off with a bigoted premise because I completely agree with you, Mike.

Mo Hamoudi:

Yeah.

Karen Koehler :

Um because that's true, that's the truth. So we need to re-redefine. Sorry, we didn't intend to be.

Mike Todd:

Success is not dependent on the amount of work. It it does affect it, but it doesn't mean I mean the difference between working in a law firm and say working at a McDonald's, a McDonald's is gonna have rushes during the day where it's harder and more work has to be done. But at nighttime it's gonna be slower. A law firm is gonna be busy when they have a trial or in the lead up to the trial. Now, if it's a larger firm like ours and you've got multiple attorneys, then there's the possibility of multiple trials overlapping at the same time, which is gonna make everybody really busy. But let me tell you, I've worked here a long time and I've seen people leave in the middle of a trial. Not the attorneys, but the but the staff. Or leave right on the eve of a trial where you would think the most work is happening. Um, I've seen other people that don't. I mean, myself personally, I'd have to go back to look for the exact number, but it was at least three, possibly five years before I took a vacation when I started working for this firm. So I worked straight from when I started until then, without taking any days that that the whole firm wasn't taking off.

Mo Hamoudi:

Yeah, yeah.

Mike Todd:

I know younger people who don't do anything like that. I've seen younger people than me come in and take a vacation the second week or the first week of working at a firm, which I to this day would never do. Yeah, yeah. That's totally against my work ethic. But that doesn't mean that they don't do a harder job because sometimes maybe they're working really hard for a short period of time and then they get to have a more relaxed schedule for a little while after that. Yeah, yeah. That's kind of the difference that I see. Yeah. Uh in in places is some jobs you're busy a lot of the time, but then you don't have to be there after 4 p.m. You work from 9 to 4, yeah, or you know, whatever. You have an eight-hour shift, and that's it.

Mo Hamoudi:

Yeah.

Mike Todd:

Where attorneys, doctors, you know, other professionals, software engineers for sure, that those industries have been built around doing a lot of stuff in a small period of time, and that's where all of the money is generated. And then the rest of the time is kind of getting ready for that next thing to happen. Like you said, with with Microsoft, Karen, back then that was the culture. Everyone stayed all the time. They worked like crazy. That was it. But then when it was done, they didn't have a new project that started the next day. They might have a few weeks off, and that's when they got to take vacations, that's when they got to relax a little bit.

Mo Hamoudi:

Yeah.

Mike Todd:

And then they would go back to that crazy schedule. Most of those people can't last that long in those jobs. You know, they don't do that for 30 years. They do that for five years, and then they move to another job. You know, that's that's how things change. When I was younger, people would get a job, work at a place for 20, 30 years, and then have a pension and and move on. Now, most jobs aren't like that. Everybody's just working for the period of time that they're working, and and some businesses are good enough to give a little bit extra, and other businesses don't at all. I mean, you know, it's those people that I talked about that don't, that aren't going to rise above where they are in society, that's because the jobs that they are at give them the minimum of health care, give them the minimum of bonuses, or if at all. Some of them, you know, work, those industries are set up so those employees can't get those things because they're not even allowed to work the amount of hours that make you eligible to get some of those benefits. So, I mean, it's hard to say.

Karen Koehler :

I think that Mike's scolding of us is appropriate. Um, and I think it's that we didn't do a good job enough of of and that we should redefine our topic. Because I think all of Mike's points are completely right. We weren't just making a generalized comment of only lawyers work hard and no one else was hard.

Mike Todd:

No, you weren't.

Karen Koehler :

But but we kind of, you know, but you were kind of putting it up in successful. What what I think I'm what I think that the better way of framing it is, is when you're in a when you're in a job, um, a comp a job that's similar to a trial lawyer job, where whether you are ultimately going to rise to the top of that profession or not, depends upon your ability to consistently be at the top of that profession in terms of um not just reputation, but the work product that you do, the results that you achieve, the um, you know the craft of it. It's more akin to like a musician, right? So it's not just playing the notes over and over again, it's getting them better and better and better. Um, writing your songs so that they're, you know, more and more and more powerful. Not just repetitive work, um, but advance work that's advancing a professional craft. It's it's a little bit more narrow than only lawyers work hard, because we all know that that's not true. Well, I guess where I would go with that too is help me redefine it because you see where I want to go.

Mike Todd:

I think a lot of that has to do with the team in general at at wherever you are. Like, I mean, when I went in for my heart surgery, it was not one doctor, it was not just the surgeon that was handling it. It was I mean, at the hospital that I that I was at, I would say 40 people. But I didn't even see a lot of them because the surgeon worked with a team of surgeons that were all over the United States and Europe. And so, I mean, there were a ton of people working on that. When we go to trial, it's not just you, Karen, it's not just you, Mo. It's a bunch of other people and experts that we pay, and so on and so forth. I mean, it it it it becomes a large process, and that's what helps get the successful outcomes. So I think it's not just the individual is where I'm going.

Karen Koehler :

Well, I don't disagree with that either, and yet the individuals who are on the team are very important. Yeah, and they're and each one has a role. And some of the roles are like you said, like the client is a team member, the witnesses, the experts. There's a there's there is a large team involved. But you know, I'm coming at it from a very particular perspective as the lead the leader of the team. And what I see so I've been involved in teams that work extremely well, and I've been in teams that have been not so good. And a lot of the time when they're not so good, it's because people aren't all rowing at the same rate.

Mike Todd:

But I would say what makes you and I don't know Mo as well, but I would probably say Mo as well, is that you're able to direct the team, and that's the difference. And that's what creates the successful person, is being able to recognize, like you said, there's something wrong with the team that we need to fix, or the team's working the way it is, and I can do my part as best I can. That's where that's where the difference between the worker at you know a fast food restaurant versus the lead attorney on a case. Um I think that that's where the question of what makes you an effective attorney at a firm like this is being able to stand at the front and not just come up with the plan, but be able to implement the plan and react to what wasn't planned for.

Karen Koehler :

Well, so uh you've totally derailed us, Mike. Um because I do agree with so much of what you said, but it's still not my point. Okay. Um and my point is you can't I don't think that you can be the leader without sacrifice of your personal life. I don't think that it's possible in this profession. I um while the office may seem calm in between trials, the amount of cases that I am leader on does not allow for actual calmness. Um the teams that work on my cases um used to be really big. I've gone down where I'm trying to get my team smaller to be more manageable. Uh for me personally, it's been it's it's better for me personally to narrow my management because I want everybody rowing at the same rate that I am, and when it's not, then I feel like we get out of harmony. Um I have at this point of my career, um I still work, I still do not, I've never worked 40 hours a week. I've not no I can't even imagine what that would be like. I um mow this money and said, What do you do over the week? And I said, Oh he said, because he was looking at my Instagram, it looks like you had a great day yesterday. You were playing with your grandkids, which I did. I got up, saw Sophie, it was Sunday, uh do her little baby soccer. We went to Target and spent, you know, grandma money. We went to Taco Time, and then I came home, I ran down the hill to see Shelly at work, talked about her job, then I came back and I was at my kitchen table working until 9 45 p.m. Because I had to get some briefs and other projects out on a Sunday. It just that's how it goes. There's never time that there's never a day, I don't want to say never, there's occasionally a day when I will not work. But in general, my work is part of my life.

Mike Todd:

Would you say that uh when you just said occasionally there's a day that we wouldn't work, would you say that 15 years ago that was the same?

Karen Koehler :

Yeah.

Mike Todd:

That you still had a couple days that you didn't work?

Karen Koehler :

In a year, yeah. So the the only thing that stopped me from working more was when my, you know, as a single mom. So when I had my children, they were able to prevent me from being completely inhuman person because they demanded my attention. And sometimes I wouldn't give it to them. I mean, I was not, you know, always there. I would be there, but sometimes I would be working, I would be multitasking. So I got in the habit, like we went, I can remember one of the first vacations I went on, it was like had been six years or something like that. I went on vacation with them, and they wanted to go on a cruise, which was like a nightmare for me. How did I because you couldn't you couldn't be connected while you were and it was very, very hard on me. And so they wanted to go on one again, and it was like four or five years later. And I agreed. I was very, very, very worried about it because I just it caused me so much stress. And the deal was that as long as it was after like 10 o'clock, so I could work on it after 10. When it was in port, then I can transmit all my work, and that gave me a little bit. Then again, you know, I would go every like several years. We went to Italy, and and I was worried about it, but not as much. We I made sure that everything that we went in had Wi-Fi back then. And again, I just that's why you know I used to sleep very little. So after about 10, that's when they just they let me be, and that's when I would get all my work done. So yes, always been like this. Now you know how I live my life, is I haven't taken a vacation since 2019. Um instead, I bought a house in Hawaii and bought a house in New York, and I go there and it's vacation-like.

Mike Todd:

But you're still working.

Karen Koehler :

I work.

Mike Todd:

Yeah.

Karen Koehler :

Yeah.

Mike Todd:

No, I know. I wasn't I was gonna say that. Like you've you've kind of kept that same pattern the whole time that I've known you.

Karen Koehler :

You everybody, this is what you like about me, is everybody can always get a hold of me.

Mike Todd:

Yeah.

Karen Koehler :

You will not spend 24 hours with not getting a hold of me. And I'm happy. I mean, I'm really happy.

Mike Todd:

But we also have to expect to get emails on a Saturday at midnight.

Karen Koehler :

You can ignore those.

Mike Todd:

No, we do, but I mean I'm just saying, like that will that's how I know you're always working because I get those emails on the weekends, and there's no way that you're not working if I'm getting an email at 10 o'clock at night on a Saturday.

Karen Koehler :

And I'm not the kind of person that just wants to sit there and work for the sake of working. Like I'm normally having to get something done. Like last night, I had thought I was gonna be able to go and be done by about eight. And then I thought, oh, this lawyer from out of town, he's been asking me about this thing. I'm gonna go look at it. And I had kind of I kind of put off looking at it because I knew I was gonna have to heavily edit it. And I did. It was a and it was brutal. It was brutal edits, it wasn't my work product, and so it was about an hour and a half later, and I was like, oh, it's really, you know, it came down hard. But um that's how you stay for me in this profession where I'm not just the leader, I'm also a person that takes very seriously my need to support this vehicle of a law firm and the people in it. So I really want to always have a good year for the law firm, which means I need to also plan to have a good year for the next year and the next year after that. And and so it's just a lot. And I would say that that's what I'm talking about. To be in my shoes, I don't see how you do that without sacrificing. Like I used to play piano, I gave it away. I mean, I I could not, I gave myself a year to to you know, play it again. I said, okay, I'll play it again. I used to love playing piano. I put it downstairs, the floor started sinking. My in my 125-year-old house. I put it down there because I didn't want to see it anymore upstairs because I just could not, and I didn't want to play it because I sounded bad. You know, you have to practice. And it's like I I can't, I had to make those decisions. Like, yeah, this is not gonna happen. This is not gonna happen. So there's been a lot of things I liked to do which I have cut out of my life.

Mike Todd:

Well, what about you? We've we we haven't heard anything from you in a while now.

Mo Hamoudi:

I mean, I'll go back and and I wasn't success to me is not money. I don't think money is success. I think money is a variable of success because society says it is, okay, which is fine. I agree with that agreement. But I've been working since I was 13. There has never been a moment in my life that I have not worked. And everything I have done uh washed bathrooms, worked in kitchens, cooked food, bus tables, washed cars, uh bartended, bartended, weighted tables, worked at the public defenders, paralegaled, everything I have done. Real estate, right? Real estate, insurance, uh clothing store. Clothing store. I mean, everything I have done, I have made a commitment to myself to be the exception to the rule. And that's just that's sacrifice because I put in a great deal of effort, a great deal of time, because I am driven by things that are greater than money. Now, all I'm saying is that's sacrifice. It's a sacrifice, it's a choice, it's my personal choice. If you are with people who sacrifice, who want to be the exception, the organization does better. Hey, don't talk about organization. How much do you work? I work probably somewhere between hours.

Karen Koehler :

Take us through a a typical day.

Mo Hamoudi:

I mean, a typical day for me is I am up at like five, five thirty in the morning. I get up, uh, I make myself coffee, and I journal, I write a poem, a shower change, and I come into the office, and you're here by when? Huh?

Karen Koehler :

When when are you here by?

Mo Hamoudi:

Generally I'm here somewhere between six and seven o'clock in the morning. And I come in and um I I touch every case that we have. Like I have to touch every case. So I go through my list of cases and I touch it. What do I got to do here? Check in here, what do I gotta do here? And I go through it. And I'm thinking about how I can move this case forward, even if it is a little bit an email, uh uh uh a uh uh you know pleading or something to that effect. Now, there are people on the team who help facilitate that process, who are exceptional people, who create lists, who nudge, who support and facilitate. There are leaders within the organization who lead the case and move it fast. Well, why do we need to do that? Because we're responsible for all of the people here in this office, many of which who cannot go out and generate cases, and we have to provide for them, provide for their families, provide for their health care and things of that nature. And we owe it to the clients, which is primary. So like these are like the these are like the goals. Like I think.

Karen Koehler :

So you touch you touch each case and then then do you have lunch?

Mo Hamoudi:

No, sometimes I don't even have lunch. What do you eat? I eat like I wait the fruits.

Mike Todd:

Yeah. You know, like the He goes into the kitchen and eats whatever snacks.

Mo Hamoudi:

I I go to the kitchen, I just eat real quick. I eat a little snack and I go back to my to my desk. I don't go out and eat, honestly. I don't have time. And it's okay as long as I'm getting my food nourishment. This is why I say, by the way, the the the crap snacks that we have. We need to get some proteins up there.

Karen Koehler :

Okay, and that'd be great. And then what time do you what time do you leave the office?

Mo Hamoudi:

I mean, it depends. Sometimes, you know, this is because my son and his basketball, sometimes I'll leave and and go home and and sometime around 4 35. But then At night I work. You know, once everybody in the family is in bed and go, I go in another hour and a half and I'm sitting there working. But I'm thinking about the cases all the time. Obsessively. I am talking to her. I don't know. We talk probably like five minutes a day, ten minutes a day, or something. Like we conversate and like we're talking about cases and stuff, you know? And so it's just like to me, it's like I don't feel I mean I guess it's sacrifice, Karen, but it doesn't feel like sacrifice.

Karen Koehler :

But it is because you could be spending time with you know, doing something else. You could you'd be going out to lunch with more friends.

Mo Hamoudi:

I could be going out to lunch with more friends.

Karen Koehler :

I'm not and you're not saying that and the thing is, I'm not saying that we don't. Like if you were to look at my camera photos, you'd be shocked at what I can get done in a day, but there's like no rest. Well, that's why there's no lingering.

Mike Todd:

That's where I was gonna go. Like both of you stated that you spend time thinking about work often. And I do that too. I mean, that's something that I notice is that I feel that people that are more motivated in their job will spend more time thinking about. Like my wife is the same way. She's got a big project, you know, like a year-long project that she's working on at her work, and she's constantly thinking about it and thinking forward. Like, I'm like, hey, maybe we should take another short vacation before the end of the year. And she's like, next three months, I don't think that's gonna happen. Yeah. You know, it's like maybe she could take a day here or there, but it would be the kind of thing where we'd have to decide the day before, maybe. Um, and there's you know, and she works from home. So a lot of people would think that, you know, these days a lot of people are like working from home, you're not doing anything at all.

Karen Koehler :

Well, Mike, you know, people use the term work ethic, I think, to describe what we're talking about a little bit more specifically. True. And and people will say work ethic as if that means, you know, it's a generality, like it's just a term. It doesn't describe what actually happens. And there's a lot of people that say, well, the work ethic generation, you know, is the the boomers and and the uh the greats, and now people don't have a great work ethic. And I think that that is that is a short, really shorthand description that doesn't capture what what we're talking about. But I think what we're actually talking about is a work ethic.

Mike Todd:

Oh yeah. That is for sure.

Karen Koehler :

Yeah.

Mike Todd:

Um but I I think also that it's not just like it's easy for the early like the boomers or the Generation X to say, oh, we worked so much harder, because it seemed like it at the time. Yeah. But we also didn't have the choice to have a work like balance back then. It was just kind of the way things were done. Now people have the choice to do to work that hard if they want to, but they also have the choice to maybe not work as much. And uh I I think you know, we've we've seen it in the last couple years where like Elon Musk was trying to get the the workers at Tesla to go back to what you were talking about, where everyone was there all the time and and constantly working. But he doesn't want that to ever end, from the way that I understood it, where the work ethic now has changed a little bit in general to you don't have to kill yourself to do it. You don't have to work, you shouldn't have to think about it all the time. You should have time to go with your son and play basketball, you should have time to spend with your family, you should be able to go to Hawaii and and relax or whatever. So when the younger people want to do those things, that's because our generation changed it into more of that work ethic where it was like we were this is a little crazy. We're working too hard. We got to slow things down. And then now everyone's saying that because we slowed it down, it's the younger generation being wrong. Yeah.

Mo Hamoudi:

I mean, I just think that like I enjoy it. Like, I don't do it because I suffer. Like I could go do something else, you know. I mean, even when I was at the public defender, I didn't have to work that much.

Karen Koehler :

I can honestly say, um, you know, I don't know that there's I don't know that this is a topic that has answers to it, but I can tell you that I don't work well with people who don't work like me. That's what I have come to realize as a as a lawyer. I I just don't. There's there, it's why Mo and I get along so well. Like he's yeah, he's got a very nine o'clock at night, and we're gonna be talking about some case. Like if I need to, or we're or we're gonna be collaborating and doing something. Oh, well, this needs to get done. Okay, well, here's a strap, well, here's a draw. You know, I and the other person that even almost more so than Mo that's important to me, no offense, is Kristen.

Mo Hamoudi:

Oh, yeah.

Karen Koehler :

Kristen is crazy great for me because she's so fast and she, you know, she is just she is right there, like step by step, is really it's hard. And and I think it's hard for people that don't work like me, which is very fast and a lot and hard. It's hard for me to not have that in my team.

Mo Hamoudi:

But this is the sacrifice thing because yeah, right? Like when I said, like, if you you're just gonna be better if you have three, you know, three or four people sacrificing.

Mike Todd:

Yeah, it's just a more effective team.

Mo Hamoudi:

It's just a more effective team. And it's not like that, you know. Yeah. And it's just like you get you get more results.

Mike Todd:

You get more faster results, for sure. I I don't necessarily know that you get more, but I definitely think you get faster. And I think that I I think that it varies depending on the field that you're in too. I think that in law that speed is needed. That you know, that that has to happen. Um other industries can be more slow-paced, and it's just fine for them, and they can get done what they need to get done. Um and I think that money comes into that too. Like a business that's not working as much isn't gonna make as much money. If you're someone like me that doesn't care about having that much money, then that's fine. But if you want money, you're gonna need to generate more by doing more work.

Mo Hamoudi:

Yeah. We when I was when I was 14, I got a job at this pizzeria called Le Cocos. It's the best pizzeria in Moring County. It is the best pizzeria in Marine County.

Karen Koehler :

Is it still there?

Mo Hamoudi:

It's still there. Every time I go back, I go there and they see me and they know me so well. And they and they and I hug people. It's because it was part of my upbringing. And this was like the first like big job I got. And I was so excited about it for a couple of reasons. One, um uh, I was able to get half a pizza every day and bring it home. And you know, we didn't have a lot. So I'd come home and that was that was dinner. Like that was a big deal. And the second thing was I was able to contribute to the household. So my paychecks, I was able to give it to my mom and say, here's my uh contributions to the till. But what I loved about the job is that the owner of the pizzeria um had immigrated here from Italy, and him and his brother had their family recipe, and um everybody loved the pizzeria so much, the pizza used to fly out the door. But we had to go make the dough from scratch all the time. And we used to have like every month we would go in, me, uh, the owner, Nick, Doug, who was like the head chef guy, and we would go in and make a thousand dough. And we would go through this process, and we were so efficient, we were so disciplined, and we we sacrificed a lot of hours to go in just through this process of making dough because people used to come into that place and love the pizza so much, and we could never have it run out. We could never run out of the pizza. So it wasn't maybe for the owner it was about money because he was making a killing selling the pizza. But I felt like I was part of this process where I, when they used to come in, these kids used to come in, and I used to be able to take the dough mic and I knead the dough, and I would throw the dough up in the air, and the kids would go bananas. Being part of that process made me feel like the amount of effort and sacrifice I made, because I was going to school full-time and I was working at this place, made me the exception to the rule. The outcome for me was the joy of that experience being in partnership with these people and making pizza. I think that's what like sacrifice for me meant. And I was like, I'm willing to do this. And I know, I mean, I I don't own a pizzeria. Pizza is in my passion.

Karen Koehler :

Wait a minute. My takeaway is you can throw the dough in the air. Yes. Oh my god, Mike, we gotta get, we gotta get, we gotta have a pizza party.

Mike Todd:

Can you still do it?

Mo Hamoudi:

I can still do it. Of course you can. I can still, I can throw the dough up in air.

Mike Todd:

Pretty much everyone I know that ever had to work at a pizza place that could do that can still do that. And I always, it it always impresses me. It's like somebody that can juggle, kind of for me.

Mo Hamoudi:

And every time I used to throw it up, this is really funny. Nick used to say, he used to go, fish on! And I thought it was like a Sicilian term, right? I'm like, what is that? Fish on. And then one morning he sweet, sweetest man, he took me fishing. You know, we went fishing, and we're fishing out in this lake, Lake Berriessa, and then get something. And then he goes, he starts to go, fish on! And I thought it's just interpreted. I go, Nick, what is that? What are you talking about? He's saying, fish on. Yeah. And that was and I'm throwing the dough up and he's saying the same thing. It just, you know, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Mike Todd:

So did he fish a lot?

Mo Hamoudi:

He fished a lot. He he was he's the sweetest man. He used to always take me fishing with him. Um and uh uh and and and then we would go get the fish and bring it back and clean it. Um yeah.

Mike Todd:

So here's here's that's a good example. I mean, here you got somebody that's got a very successful pizza place, yeah. But he still takes time out to go fishing with his employees.

Mo Hamoudi:

Yeah.

Karen Koehler :

Oh God, turn the screws on me, Mike. You know.

Mike Todd:

Yeah.

Karen Koehler :

Aren't you taking me quite a bit?

Mike Todd:

I'm just saying that that means that that's that shows that there's sacrifice, but also time for himself.

Mo Hamoudi:

Yeah. Yeah. I kind of get the sense that he, yeah, I didn't have a dad. I think he was trying to be a fatherly figure in my life. You know, but you're right. But he still took the time to do it. He didn't have to do that with his employees.

Karen Koehler :

Well, he could have opened another couple pisterias if he was really ambitious.

Mike Todd:

If he was Mark Human.

Karen Koehler :

Correct.

Mike Todd:

That's right.

Karen Koehler :

Correct.

Mo Hamoudi:

That's right.

Mike Todd:

See, that's kind of where I'm going with this whole thing. That was my take on this. Is that you can have time. You're gonna have to sacrifice, for sure. That's part of it. But as you move along, you can still sacrifice but find time for yourself. And I think you have to, because you can't. I think the people, I mean, I've seen it, people just burn out after a period of time. And I've known people, I remember a friend of my wife's had become an attorney and worked as an attorney for like three years and was like, I can't do this.

Karen Koehler :

Well, that it's a high level of staff.

Mike Todd:

Yeah, that's my point. Like, you gotta get through the first five, ten years, whatever, before you can get to a place where you're like, okay, I'm gonna slow down a little bit. If you've got kids, you're a single mother, like you had you had to work as hard as you could and try to find time. So you were sacrificing sleep, you were sacrificing, you know, any of your own personal time for everybody else. And uh there came a point where you were able to slow that down a little bit, even though your work ethic drove you all the time.

Karen Koehler :

Well, my kids grew up, but the reality was that in my late 30s, you know, also I was getting divorced. Um I realized that I was gonna die young if I didn't um um slow down see the doctor, see the dentist, uh, and s and that's when I started um taking an hour, hour and a half to work out. And I've been very rigorous about all of that ever since. Um because I did not want to basically die young. I want to drive yourself into the ground. Yeah, you really need to to to do that. But now, like since Nala died, I don't run as much. I walk run. Like I walk round over here, or I walk and I run when I'm on the phone almost the whole time. That's when I make all my calls. Um so you know, there's ways to do it. I think for me, the the the difference of there's a there's also a an and this is also a privileged viewpoint. Um I'm choosing to sacrifice, whereas many people, the majority of people in the world do not choose to make the sacrifices. They have no choice, they have no option. Yeah. Um, so I'm choosing to make these sacrifices as a you know American, well-off, professional um, you know, person still at the height of my career. I choose to do it. Um, but in my choice to do it and when I'm doing it, for the most part, at least for now, when I'm not burnt out, I was burnt out about two, three years ago from work smoking. It doesn't feel like a sacrifice. I was able to see my grandkids, I was able to play with them, I was able to um go see my my best friend and support her. And then I worked. So I missed out on a little bit of TV that maybe I would have otherwise watched. Um and I lost it to to Loris and backgammon as usual. Um, but it didn't feel like it. Um that's what Moe's saying is like I'm willing to do it because it feels good. It's feeding something that I want. I I I want to I also have an insatiable need to always do and be better and to help and and to conquer and to fight. And so I I'm so fed by what I do. So it's a privileged sacrifice, and maybe that's how this should have been reframed from the very beginning. The privilege of sacrifice um in this profession. I think I think that's what it is.

Mike Todd:

Yeah, I I agree. I think that's a much better way to put it.

Mo Hamoudi:

Yeah, I'm grateful. I'm grateful. I'm only in this country because a woman woke up one day and was like, I'm gonna take my son out of Iran and bring him to the United States. I mean, I'm just grateful. What else am I gonna do with this opportunity? So, like, there's like a little bit of sense of urgency. Otherwise, you know, I my family in Iran, they don't get the privilege of sacrifice, they really don't.

Karen Koehler :

I think also that a person that is like me or Mo or Strip Matter or you know, a lot of the storied people that have been in this firm is that there's you know, there's something a little bit wrong with us. Yeah.

Mike Todd:

I didn't I didn't go there.

Karen Koehler :

We're not really normal.

Mike Todd:

Before we started this, Mo was asking about the uh like some of the other attorneys that were here before him, yeah, that that might have been like that. And I was like, I didn't say that, but uh I still remember that people calling you guys cowboys and uh and sort of mavericks and not not considering it to be the norm. And I think it's true, you know, and I think that I've always attributed that to the reason that this firm's been successful.

Karen Koehler :

Yeah. There is something wrong with this.

Mo Hamoudi:

There is something wrong with this. That's good that's kind of that's the name of this.

Karen Koehler :

Thanks for keeping us on a straight line and keeping it real, Mike.

Mo Hamoudi:

Always keeps it real. See you guys.

Head Shot

Karen Koehler

Co-host
Head Shot

Mo Hamoudi

Co-host

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