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The Velvet Hammer™ Podcast
Trial lawyers can be real people, too—and this podcast proves it. The Velvet Hammer™ is back, and this time, Karen Koehler isn’t going it alone. Known for her fearless advocacy, bold storytelling, and, yes, even the occasional backwards dress moment, Karen is teaming up with Mo Hamoudi, a lawyer, poet, and storyteller whose empathy and resilience add a whole new dynamic to the show.
Together, they’re pulling back the curtain on trial law, diving into bold topics, heartfelt stories, and the messy, hilarious moments that make trial lawyers human. This is an unscripted, raw, and fun take on life inside—and outside—the courtroom.
The Velvet Hammer™ Podcast
The Velvet Hammers’ Journey through Bias, Marginalization, and Systemic Inequities
Episode: Live Podcast - The Velvet Hammers’ Journey through Bias, Marginalization, and Systemic Inequities
Recorded Live on December 2, 2025
1 Ethics Equity Credit - Please visit stritmatter.com/cle for Activity ID.
Karen Koehler and Mo Hamoudi bring their Velvet Hammer Podcast style to an important CLE. This program examines how bias, marginalization, and systemic inequities affect trial lawyers who are BIPOC in Washington State courts. Drawing on first-hand accounts, qualitative data, and professional experiences, Karen and Mo will explore how their lived experiences reflect broader structural and cultural barriers in legal communities and systems.
From courtroom dynamics to professional advancement, adversarial interactions to peer relationships, this seminar will illustrate how both explicit and implicit biases can shape reputations, work environment and outcomes. Highlighting RPC 8.4(g) (related to professional misconduct) and a lawyer’s ethical duty to promote fairness and integrity in the justice system.
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Hosted by Karen Koehler and Mo Hamoudi, trial lawyers at Stritmatter Law, a nationally recognized plaintiff personal injury and civil rights law firm based in Washington State.
Produced by Mike Todd, Audio & Video Engineer, and Kassie Slugić, Executive Producer.
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Karen is our senior managing partner. Mo is the partner who handles civil rights and conflicts litigation, and together they bring honesty and clarity to conversations about bias and inequity that affect the BIPOC trial lawyers in Washington courts. So please join me in welcoming Karen, Mo, and Mike.
Mo Hamoudi :Okay.
Karen Koehler :Here we go.
Mo Hamoudi :Let's go.
Karen Koehler :Another podcast. This is like our 40 something.
Mo Hamoudi :Yeah, 40 years. 49 or something.
Karen Koehler :Yeah, something like that.
Mo Hamoudi :Yeah.
Kassie Slugic :Yeah.
Karen Koehler :All right. Um, and if you're wondering, Mike never shows up. He's our disembodied voice of wisdom. Yes. All right. Well, today we have a special topic that we pretty much talk about all the time anyway. Um, marginalization, systemic inequities. What was the third one? Something.
Mo Hamoudi :Bias.
Karen Koehler :Bias.
Mo Hamoudi :Yeah.
Karen Koehler :So I do have a story for you.
Mo Hamoudi :Okay, tell me your story.
Karen Koehler :I have so many stories.
Mo Hamoudi :Yeah.
Karen Koehler :Well, let's put it this way. I always thought that I would grow out of being thought not to be a lawyer. I always thought that. Like when I was 25, I thought, okay, I get why people don't think I'm a lawyer. I get it. But 40 years later, with this, maybe not as much frequency, but regular. So yesterday I was here at the office and we were getting ready for a video deposition of a client of mine in person because the state decided they wanted to come in person. And I walked into the conference room. It was our formal conference room upstairs, beautiful conference room with the giant antique and all of that. And they had the gray screen set up at the end of the table for the client. Client, I I told the client, don't come in yet. I want to check out everything. And one of the lawyers was getting ready to sit right next to that person. And the court reporter was on, so the court reporter had been on the left of the deponent, and the defense lawyer was going to be on the right. And I said, Well, that's where I'm going to sit. I said, You know, you need to sit on the other side of the table down there, because I need to sit next to my client. At which point the court reporter said, Are you the interpreter? Ouch.
Mike Todd:And now how old was the court reporter?
Mo Hamoudi :Estimate.
Karen Koehler :Late 40s.
Kassie Slugic :Okay.
Mo Hamoudi :Man or woman?
Karen Koehler :Female.
Kassie Slugic :Okay.
Mo Hamoudi :Okay. Uh wait.
Karen Koehler :Now this was slightly surprising to me, but not shocking.
Mike Todd:Okay.
Karen Koehler :Because my career has been spent being mistaken for the court reporter.
Mike Todd:No, I know.
Karen Koehler :But to have the court reporter, then ask if I was the interpreter.
Mike Todd:That's why I was asking about our age and and uh and my client.
Karen Koehler :I said, my client. Like, what is confusing about that?
Mike Todd:I mean, I guess you can think that an interpreter would call that person a client. I that's a stretch for me, but I I guess you could say that.
Karen Koehler :No.
Kassie Slugic :You could.
Mike Todd:I'm just playing devil's advocate.
Karen Koehler :You couldn't. And and the thing is, so if this was a one-off, then that would be that. But I have a history of this, of people not realizing I'm the attorney because I don't fit a stereotype of what an attorney is. Um, and I've we've talked about this in the podcast. So many examples of, you know, you're not the court reporter and the court reporter being there, and then them saying, Well, the court reporter is already here, you can't come in.
Mike Todd:Like the receptionist chasing you down to the conference room because she thought you weren't the attorney either.
Karen Koehler :The judge leaning over the the bench speaking down to the trial and saying, Are you an attorney? But what what else would I be? Um, these things are commonplace for me and for many other lawyers, but not certain other lawyers. Mo has never had this happen. And Mo is Mo is, you know, not white, although he looks like he's Mo from Brooklyn.
Mo Hamoudi :Yeah, he sounds like Mo from Brooklyn.
Karen Koehler :That's like Italian. Do the Italian.
Mo Hamoudi :Well, you know, what are you talking about?
Karen Koehler :There you go. So um that's what we're gonna kind of talk about is that.
Mo Hamoudi :Yeah.
Karen Koehler :Um, just and tell him, tell him what you he he was upset. Well, I was he was more upset than I was there when it happened?
Mo Hamoudi :No, but she came and told me, and I was furious.
Karen Koehler :And I was but he was on a depth, he was covering it an expert deposition.
Mo Hamoudi :I was doing a deposition and I felt felt the need to step up and do something at the risk of most splaining, so I didn't. He didn't, but later on I sent her a note and said, This is what I wanted to do, but I didn't because you've commented to me that you wish me not to splain as much, and so I kept my mouth shut and I just was sort of there for her, and I said, I'm sorry, you experienced it.
Karen Koehler :No, he was, but you were stewing.
Mo Hamoudi :I was stewing, I was stewing, and I was really thinking about it, and I was thinking about it, and I think it's important because we're seeking a CLE equity credit to provide a little broader background. Okay, good. Okay, it's important to understand that the Washington State Bar Association has conducted an extensive data collection campaign and survey to try to figure out whether or not the practice of law is uh diverse. They're diverse enough enough lawyers, and they learn some staggering information that it's woefully not diverse.
Karen Koehler :Wait a minute. Okay, this is not a new news flash.
Mo Hamoudi :Well, I understand it's not a news flash, but when you have an institution that is a professional organization take on the affirmative task of doing an objective data collection.
Karen Koehler :They've done this before, they've done it over the years. I've got I've got statistics. Okay, nothing ever changes.
Mo Hamoudi :Well, I I know, but I'm just we gotta lay some groundwork here. And is is that they have put together a commission to address this. Okay, and so like the and part of the commission's objective is what's the name of it? It's the Washington State Bar Association, it's got a diversity and equity. No, it is, but they've done it, they're making they're making the progress, and and so what I'm saying is is that progressive. But uh well, if you let me finish, Mike is laughing. If you let me finish, uninstitutional. Well, no, but I'm saying is that they have a committee, they're putting together plans and they're trying to do things, but I think that part of and having been on a diversity committee, uh DEI committee, is that you aspire to do things, and then how the hell does a committee like that address an issue like what she experienced yesterday? You know, that to me is so context specific because she is right. That would not have happened to me. So there's a part of what happened, I think, yesterday was that you know, if you meet Karen in person, she is smaller in stature, she has dark features, uh, and she's obviously a woman, and she does not necessarily dress when she shows up to things in your traditional lawyer garb.
Karen Koehler :I was wearing a jacket.
Mo Hamoudi :I know, but it's not like the so what I'm saying is is that all of these biases are in this person's mind. Oh no. Right? And then and then so like so, so, so like re re-educating the person who is suffering from the bias is is a task that I don't know if organizations can directly address. Like, I don't know what you do to deal with that. Like, I don't know, unless you confront her. What did you say to her when you said I'm I'm a lawyer? I'm not what happened to the case.
Karen Koehler :No, I don't see so I used to just I used to I used to be more surprised or less I didn't I didn't used to have any like negative energy anger coming out. Yeah, it used to be more inward, like, oh, I guess I don't look like a lawyer. Oh, I guess I don't act like a lawyer, oh I guess I'm not lawyer-ish enough.
Mo Hamoudi :That's what you thought yesterday?
Karen Koehler :No, when I was a newer lawyer, a newer lawyer, okay. Younger lawyer, you know, which is which is you know, and then I was in my 30s, and then I was in my 40s, yeah, and then I was in my 50s, and here I am in my 60s, still confronted with the same stuff. So I don't approach it the same way anymore.
Mo Hamoudi :So how do you approach it now?
Karen Koehler :So I don't look inward and say, I guess I just don't look enough like a lawyer. I have to do is talk to me, and you can tell like something.
Mo Hamoudi :Yeah.
Karen Koehler :Like I think I belong there. I feel very comfortable in my arena. Um, I try not to lash out. I said, she said that to me, and I looked at her dead in the face, which normally I wouldn't, like I'd be smiling, or I'd try to like make light of it, or you know, be kind about it. I'm no longer kind. And I said, plaintiff lawyer. And then I just never smiled at her again.
Mo Hamoudi :What was her response when you said plaintiff lawyer?
Karen Koehler :Nothing.
Mo Hamoudi :She didn't speak after that? No, she didn't say anything. No, yeah, yeah.
Karen Koehler :There's no like, oh, I'm so sorry. And in all fairness, interpreters do a very important job. When people call me the court reporter, I don't think that I'm being denigrated because they think I'm the court reporter. I'm being denigrated because they don't think that I'm just the lawyer.
Mo Hamoudi :Okay, so that's interesting.
Karen Koehler :Like court reporters have value.
Mo Hamoudi :Yes, yes. So do our interpreters. So do interpreters.
Karen Koehler :Yes, those are honorable jobs, they're good jobs, but that's just not what I am.
Mo Hamoudi :Okay, but then is this more of an institutional problem or is this more a personal problem? That's what I was sort of thinking about, right? Because in my view, it's like I no, but I'm thinking like, is this an institutional or a personal thing? Because what you just did you do, answer that question. I'm asking you how you answer that question. I'm not gonna answer that question because I'll be most blameless. Mike, answer the question.
Mike Todd:It's both for that matter. Okay, if you wanted to say uh whether or not, but uh, for me, it's kind of like if you went into a bank and somebody was walking across the bank lobby, yeah, would you think that they were the bank manager?
Mo Hamoudi :You know what? I immediately when you said that, I thought of like a white guy in a suit.
Mike Todd:Yeah, it doesn't matter. I'm not even giving but you thought I just thought of a white guy in a suit. So so when people come in and ask Karen, let me back this up a little bit. Ones that we've talked about in the past, ones that happened to you when you were younger, ones that happened to you when you were early on in your career. You know, I hate to make excuses, but that was a different time. People were a little bit more biased back then, I would say. They and and we've established that the practice of law has traditionally been a male-dominated field. So it I'm not excusing any of that behavior, but at that time it didn't surprise me, is what I would say. Yeah. But having it happen yesterday, yeah, that that was from someone who should have, in my opinion, like whenever I walk into a a room like that, when I've had to go to depositions or any type of professional setting, I'll walk in and say who I am because I know you might be an attorney. You might be an attorney, yeah. And you guys are the ones who are going who are kind of in charge of that meeting. So it makes sense to do that. That person has been doing depositions forever, and she's biased because most of the people that come into that room are dudes, yeah, big white guys, yeah, you know, and and so she automatically assumed that Karen was someone that would be in that room, which it could have been a paralegal, it could have been an attorney, it could have been an interpreter. All those things are possible. But she automatically thought that Karen wasn't an attorney.
Mo Hamoudi :So that's the institutional problem, but that's also personal. Okay, help me differentiate because to me.
Mike Todd:There is no difference.
Mo Hamoudi :Well, there's no difference. But the institutional problem, I think, is that which is what the Washington State Bar Association says, the bar is not diverse enough. The consequence of that is you have somebody expect a type of lawyer to walk in. Yes. And then that drove the bias behavior, which is look at Karen and go, Oh, you're the interpreter. So how is it? Help me understand how that is a personal problem.
Mike Todd:Well, each person themselves has the opportunity throughout their lives to not be biased in that way. Okay. She accepts the by the institutional bias as what is true. Okay.
Mo Hamoudi :Okay. Now, or at least that's the way that I see it. So, how would you what what would have been the appropriate response from her when um at least an acceptable response? If would an apology have been enough? I'm sorry, I made a terrible mistake.
Karen Koehler :It wasn't a terrible mistake, you know, it wasn't life or death. It wasn't a terrible mistake.
Mike Todd:It's a small mistake. That's the thing. Okay.
Karen Koehler :And and the thing about it is for a person that is subject to that all the time, there are those, you know, you heard the term micro wounding or whatever. It's like just another little cut. Yeah. And it's not a big deal. Like, I'm not gonna get mad at her. You know, there's an accumulation of it though. It's accumulated within me that like at some point I always thought, like, okay, she's obviously the lawyer, but that will never happen at this point. No, I've I'm come to terms with that. Yeah, and it's not a unique to the lawyers. I I I was within there's a there was uh, you know, okay, we talk about a lot of stuff on our podcast. One of my many dating uh histories, I dated um orthopedic surgeon, and they had a new uh orthopedic surgeon in there, not that new, but it was uh it was a fellow, I believe. So you have to be resident, you have to be fellow. So that you're there for a long time. He was black. He uh they um changed their policy. This is systemic, yeah. So that doctors had to have a badge that said, I'm a doctor, because no one would think he was the doctor. The patients all thought that he was a nurse or an orderly, or like they nobody would think that they were the doctor. And so this this is at Harbourview. Their solution was to label people as doctors or not. I mean, it is a pervasive problem, and and it's I don't know what the solution is. I think awareness is good, but to me, what helps is for other people to know like, oh, she's really good at her job. She's been doing it for 40 years, and people still think that she's the court reporter, the interpreter, or the household help. And that at least is comforting to know that okay, you're not, it's not you. That's what the that's what the hard thing is for me. If it was happening, if I was younger now, I would be very much very disappointed. Because when you are a newer, younger attorney and people don't think you're attorney, you internalize that. And and and it also happens at your job. Like, well, I guess I don't speak loudly enough, my voice isn't deep enough, you know. I was told by many people that I could not be a real trial lawyer because I don't do what trial lawyers do. I'm not, I can't fill up the space big enough, my voice is too high, you know, all this crap. That's not true. So that's what I have to say.
Mike Todd:I mean, this has happened to me too, and I'm not, you know, I'm not someone of a professional nature or whatever, but you know, I've gone, I've done various things for this firm. And when I've gotten to the places that I was supposed to go, I've had people treat me like I wasn't working for you guys, you know, treat me like I wasn't important.
Karen Koehler :Well, and isn't even that just even isn't that just true? Like we're looking at this microcosm of like, oh, you know, boo-hoo, I'm an attorney and people don't know that I'm an attorney. Like, that's why it's like almost embarrassing to talk about it and you don't really want to, but it should be, which is why we're doing it. Yeah. Versus just like the disrespect that you have to deal with as a, you know, doing your job, and you're gonna have to deal with that. Like that court reporter, I guarantee you, she probably gets disrespected more than I get disrespected. Yeah, yeah. But what we're talking about here for this purpose of this seminar is the bias in the practice of law, the marginalization that results from that, being othered. And as a person who in trial lawyer, where there's, you know, male, white male braggadocio, you know, you only talk about the wins, you never talk about the losses. You um invite all your buddies to join your clubs. You know, it is an elita society, plain of law, where there are so many specialty bars or invitationally bars. I've been in clubs where they said, well, we have terrible diversity. I'd be like one of three women in a hundred-person club across the US. I was I love that club. And what did they say when we talked about diversity? Well, we want to stay small. I mean, my best friends are in here. You know, you want to be with who you look like by nature, I guess. And this is not back in the 80s or 90s, right? That's now. Why are there so many invitation-only clubs? Why do you have to be invited to join a boda? Why do you have to, you know, why, why, what is it about us that makes us, you know, just yearn to be in these elite organizations where we pay 700 to $2,000 a year to go to dinner once a year, and then just put a sticker underneath our name and say that you know we belong to this elite club. Law is elitist.
Mike Todd:I don't know if that's I I mean, yes, law is elitist, but I was gonna say that most professional jobs, in a way, end up being elitist.
Karen Koehler :You know, doctors have the same kind of thing about it is is like lawyers and the constitution and the rule of the law. We should be like leaders.
Mike Todd:That's true.
Karen Koehler :And we are some of the totally not leaders when it comes to issues of systemic marginalization.
Mo Hamoudi :I you know, I'm just sort of exclusion. You're you're talking about this I'm focusing on the legal profession that, like by nature, we're we're an organization of professionals and we are licensed. And to belong to this organization, you have to go through a process, and that includes going to law school and passing an examination and passing a character examination and getting references. So it is discriminating in nature. Wait, wait, time out.
Karen Koehler :Who are you right now?
Mo Hamoudi :I am being Mo thinking about what you just said about like the reality of what we do is that we are we our organization discriminates in nature. Now, whether or not discriminates by criteria, that's like race, gender, and stuff is a different, but by nature we are discriminating. We don't let everybody into the organization. We have criteria. And then when we get into the organization and we become lawyers, there are subgroups. People are creating their own homogenous groups. And so we have these Abota, we have uh organizations I belong to, the Federal Bar Association, we have uh diversity bar associations, Lauren Miller. Everybody is trying to figure out how they can create power as a group, and they they do so in a way that discriminates, they associate through relationships, but uh professional influence, uh money, and it's celebrated to be in these groups. Yeah, okay, all right. So, like I want to say that there is a positive aspect Can I just say one thing real quick?
Karen Koehler :So, so I was talking to Paul, Strip Matter. I'm like Paul, there's like 10 groups you belong to. Um, Paul is 83 and he's still practicing, um but not like full time. And I'm like, do you want to keep do we still need to keep paying these, you know, $7,000 or $8,000 worth of dues a year for these? What do you get out of these organizations? And he says, Well, honestly, I just always kept them because I felt that they were good for my you know, my bio, my presence, my and I'm like, I don't think anybody really cares. Um what what value do you get from it? He he he said he got no value from it. It was like he he didn't go to anything. He didn't now when he was younger, he participated in in them, which was going to the dinner. Um but they are like you're collecting these badges of honor from organizations that celebrate what I wanted to ask too.
Mike Todd:Do you really like you call them badges of honor? Do you really think they're badges of honor if you have to pay to get them?
Karen Koehler :Well, I just some of them are, some of them are definitely like there's some organizations, and I've been in some of them where the lawyers are really good, you know, and it's really fun in a lot of ways to be with really good lawyers. The problem is is they become so insular, and then those insular groups are picking other in you know, other people, often that's a problem offspring, or people from their firms, or people that look like them. That's and and you know, obviously, bar associations in particular and firms are making or were before recent events, trying to be more diverse in their selection or have some diversity, but in general, failing. I mean, still the plane of bar I've always looked at the statistics. That's why these statistics from the WSBA, they're I've been keeping track of them since I was a lawyer. They were single digits um for most racial minority types here. Um, then they they didn't even count, you know, like me, like Mo, you know, he's half Iranian, half Iraqi, I'm half Asian, half not Asian. Um, but they didn't even count, you know, mixed race people even in the United States Senate census until what was it, 70s, 80s, 90s? I don't know. I think it was it was after I was well, well after I was born. Um we are so we are there's so little progress that has been made. And then it's like, well, we just need more racial diversity in the bar. But then it was like, okay, well, it has to be the pipeline. And then it's it's been all this stuff, right? And I don't think we should give up on that. I think that's good, but we also have to look at how we run our own organizations. They're very they're they're very non-diverse.
Mike Todd:Well, that's what I was gonna say. Uh in answer to your question earlier on, Mo, what what can change the institutional bias? I think the only way that it can be changed is doing what we're what we've done here. I mean, I remember when I started here, it was all white guys and Karen. And uh Karen started working on changing that, right? I mean, she was there a couple years before I started, but I knew right away that she was trying to change the lineup of the firm.
Karen Koehler :And it took a long time because I had no power to do that.
Mike Todd:No, and uh, and I think that uh if more firms did that, you know, if more firms focused on trying not trying to break out of the traditional law firm mode, uh, that's where you're gonna get the change. Now it's never gonna stop. I mean, there's always gonna be people that you know are running on autopilot. Like you said, she probably didn't mean to do that, she was just doing her thing.
Mo Hamoudi :Yeah.
Mike Todd:And uh I think that kind of bias isn't gonna change until there's more people like you guys that they see when they walk into the deposition.
Karen Koehler :Well, about an hour or two after that deposition was over, I got an email from Jack Guthrie, who was second chair. He was like about a he wasn't even a tenure lawyer in the Ride the Ducks case. He was second chair of one of the four defendants. You know, I was a first chair. Yeah, and we were going through courtroom TSA in Missouri, and they stopped me um and told me I couldn't bring my my cell phone in. Um, and I was with Jack, and they thought I was his client. So he was reminiscing about, you know, when that happened. He was so embarrassed that it had I was just like again, like it's the same reaction. Like it's just like, well, there it goes again. And but he was so embarrassed. I can just remember him just cringing. And me, and every time people say, Well, it's not like it used to be in the old days, but it is, it is Mo doesn't want him to be a little bit more than a little bit. It's a long silence there, Mo. Well, no, I thought you had something.
Mo Hamoudi :I'm sort of listening to all this, and and part of what makes me think is that like there for me, like the experience of bias personally obviously makes you feel disempowered. And I don't like to be in that space, I like to be in a place of empowerment. And so if an organization I feel is inaccessible.
Karen Koehler :But let's get let's get you, let's get personal with you.
Mo Hamoudi :Okay, good.
Karen Koehler :Okay, okay, let's let's get personal. So, for those that don't listen to this frequently, Mo grew up as poor as poor can be, and and you know, immigrant. Yes, he did not have the safeguard of a family, he did not have a college fund, he did not have, he did not have, he did not even know how to have goals or dreams beyond, you know. I mean, they were pretty like right in front, survival. Yes, right? Yes, and after many iterations of trying to figure out what goes most goat place was in life. I mean, we've gone through his jobs before, which were they range from throwing pieces and real estate to owning a clothing store and being a bartender and everything else in between, he decides to go to law school. Okay, does he go to the best? Does he go to Harvard? Does he go to Yale? No, does he almost not pass the SAT?
Mo Hamoudi :LSAT? Oh, yeah, whatever it was.
Karen Koehler :LSAT, yeah. Does he get into an unaccredited law school?
Mo Hamoudi :I do.
Karen Koehler :Does he work full time through law school?
Mo Hamoudi :Yes, I did.
Karen Koehler :And does he does he live not in squalor, but like not in an elegant situation?
Mo Hamoudi :No, my my wife refused when we were dating, she refused to stay at my place. She would say you can come stay with me. I'm not staying at your apartment. That happened to me too. She don't like it. She'll like it.
Mike Todd:Yeah, she'll like it.
Karen Koehler :And so so uh what firm will willingly interview someone that doesn't go to you know, a top like this firm, like we did, because our mindset was is very different.
Mike Todd:Well, you didn't go to a big school either, right?
Karen Koehler :What are you talking about?
Mike Todd:You know, yeah. One time you said you had to go down an escalator to get to school.
Karen Koehler :My school was the old UPS, which was torn down because it was an old Woolworth store, and we would get from floor to floor by going on the escalators. Yeah, um, yeah.
Mike Todd:They don't know those at Harvard.
Karen Koehler :Yeah, it's not part of Seattle, but I refuse to accept that. Went to Seattle U because I didn't. I went to UPS, which no longer exists. So the mindset is look at the person, and which is hard to do. It's hard to just look at the person. But it wasn't just us. Like he's a federal public defender for 14 years, and at the top of his game.
Mo Hamoudi :I, you know, I under personal aspects.
Karen Koehler :So wait, wait, so given that background, right? Like, like not what you would think, just even how to become a federal public defender, like that wasn't a given.
Mo Hamoudi :No, that wasn't a given. It was just uh, I mean, grit, scrappiness, and hard work.
Karen Koehler :And did you feel at a period of time earlier on in your career that you were judged for your for your um law school compared to other lawyers?
Mo Hamoudi :I I suffered professional bias. I suffered all that. I think that, you know, this is this is this is a tough topic for me because there's a part of me that says, like, you gotta, you, you, you, you know, this was an opportunity for me to grow and be empowered. And so I seized my power and I stepped into it and I found my opportunities. And and like there's a part of it is is that I, you know, I mean, I gave up a ton of my culture. Uh I mean, if you met me when when I first moved to this country, I was a different person.
Karen Koehler :Well, you didn't speak English.
Mo Hamoudi :I didn't so like you know, when you're when you're integrating, and I'll when I talk about this, I go I want to be part of the American narrative, and you're trying to integrate, you're gonna have to give some things up, or you run the risk of being part of a homogenous group, which is I could have been part of the Middle Eastern culture, Middle Eastern values, and and there and there are cultures, Middle Eastern cultures who I'm half Iranian, half Iraqi that are like Arabic and and and Persian, and like they're cultures where you can go be part of a community and have a family and have a and like I wanted more, and I didn't know what it was, and I was like, you're right, I was constantly in survival mode, but I gave up a lot of that. So now when you talk about you know the bias, you know, I I look inward when I experience it, because I still do, and when I experience it, I I I use this word very carefully, blame myself. Like you're not doing enough to integrate, you're not doing enough to adapt, you know, help them see you as not a threat or whatever they're perceiving you as, help them see you, educate them, help them. And so that part, I don't know. I I will admit partially is not a healthy type of thinking, but I I think that it's helped me to succeed.
Karen Koehler :Yeah, okay.
Mo Hamoudi :So when you say Mo from New York or my presence, these are like skill sets that I've invested years in and developing and longing and belonging.
Karen Koehler :Mo is Mo is gentler and sweeter than I am in terms of collegiality. Because, you know, you've heard the story um of I was in deposition with Brad Moore at in Bloomington, Illinois at State Farm. We were taking multiple depositions over many days. We had a vice president in there, and the other firm, which was Helsal, the Helsle firm, which no longer exists, the senior partner in there, um, after like day three or day two, no, day three or something, um, in front of everyone, including the state foreign people, all of the you know, attorneys, court reporter, the videographer, Brad. Well, Brad was a videographer, said, and they all went to like Yale and Harvard, that whole firm. And they you said, um, geez, Karen, now I know why your husband's divorcing you.
Mike Todd:Oh, yeah, I remember you saying that.
Karen Koehler :Um, and so I am more combative than Mo. Um, that's why people will say stuff like that more to me. Um, I don't have as many friends as Mo because my world has gotten small. I my tolerance of the I call it the white male hierarchy is small. Yeah. I don't, I don't have much of a tolerance anymore. I've quit all of the organizations I belong to that, you know, I quit a boda and said, well, you guys should have had me be plaintiff trial lawyer year of the year a long time ago by good luck in the future getting more diversity. Um, always go out in a huff and and something about diversity. I just I don't want to fight those battles anymore. I don't, I don't have time. I just want to do the things I like. But I did for years and years. I played the game, I watched what happened. It's like great.
Kassie Slugic :Yeah.
Mo Hamoudi :I I you know, I I hear you. I think I'm in a different place in my career, and I'm just I feel responsible to a very great I'm responsible and grateful for the circumstance I find myself in.
Karen Koehler :But I've seen you change.
Mo Hamoudi :I yeah, I yeah.
Karen Koehler :You don't roll over.
Mo Hamoudi :I don't roll over, but I feel like I have a sense of stewardship because the fact that nobody could identify the talents that I truly had to bring to the practice of law, yet a very minority few people saw something in me and said, Boy, on paper, man, you don't make sense. You're like, I don't get you. I like, what are you doing? Yeah, and then he's like, but there's something there. Why don't you come here and let me see what you can do? Like, I wish that mindset was the mindset that the Washington State Bar Association could educate and implement within the institutions and the courts as well.
Karen Koehler :Like, I was the cookie cutter, Mo. People want and expect the cookie cutter, and they're looking at this cookie cutter, and that is ingrained starting in law school. You know, the cookie cutter, this is what a lawyer is, and they come out. We've talked about this before, the prototype lawyer, they come out, and all young lawyers want to do is look like a lawyer, act like a lawyer, and have people think that they're a lawyer. So imagine your dismay when you don't look like a lawyer, yeah, and it's not working for you.
Mo Hamoudi :It's but when when if it's not working for you, but you've gotten into the organization, you have an opportunity. Like you can like take that opportunity and do something with it.
Karen Koehler :So like a lot of us are not successful, I mean, we are both successful people. We're not we're not here saying, Oh my god, the system has screwed us. What we're here saying is like chances are if you are not of the majority, you from time to time will feel alone.
Mo Hamoudi :Yeah, yeah.
Karen Koehler :And that's unfortunate.
Mo Hamoudi :But what you're successful now, I'm successful now, but we weren't when we first started. But we went into the system with an attitude and a mindset.
Karen Koehler :I thought I was successful from the very beginning. Okay, well, I do disillusional maybe.
Mike Todd:You wrote a letter when you were very young that said, That's right.
Mo Hamoudi :No, right, I've always, you know, okay, okay, okay.
Karen Koehler :You know, self-esteem has never been my issue.
Mo Hamoudi :I would, I would hope, I would hope to leave this what what I'm doing is like it's it's a labor of love. I love my job, I love my work, I love being a lawyer. I want to leave it a little bit better than I found it.
Karen Koehler :What are our solutions? And then Cassie, we haven't even let you have any questions, but if there's questions, let us know. But what are some, you know, we've we've been we've been kind of I can't say that word a little bit. Um, what are some of our solutions? What are some of our suggestions?
Mike Todd:Well, like I said, I think that uh well, like I said before, I think you should start your own group that you could you could change that stuff on your own. Um without doing that, I think that like I said, doing the same thing that you're already doing. Yeah, trying to make sure that uh more law firms are doing the same thing where they're hiring different people than the Harvard and Yale only firms. And uh no offense to Yale.
Karen Koehler :I mean, no, I'm not trying to live Darcy.
Mike Todd:They produce some of the greatest lawyers.
Karen Koehler :Darcy, Darcy, you are very smart.
Mike Todd:I would very I would immediately say, before I worked here, if you asked me what what law schools do you know, Harvard and Yale would have been the only ones.
Karen Koehler :And that's Ray and that's Ray and Darcy, and they are yeah, they are very phenomenal, very, very good lawyers.
Kassie Slugic :Yeah.
Mike Todd:Um, but I think that maybe not focusing on the names of the schools so much and focusing on the people more, which seems to be what you guys do here, um, can really make a difference.
Karen Koehler :Well, I think part of the thing about being a plaintiff lawyer anyway, if you really embrace it, is that there is a maverick nature to that practice. And that's not true for all of the practice of law. And of course, we're only speaking here about this topic in terms of plaintiff lawyers, trial lawyers, because there's so many other areas of of the bar that are way more diverse than that. Our our area is, you know, a civil justice champion, civil rights people, it's abysmal. It's still very, very low.
Mo Hamoudi :I think my solution is that, you know, when you see things on paper, understand that there's stories behind the paper that you're looking at and talk to people about their lives. Like, what did you do when you were growing up? Like, what was it like at the home? Or, you know, what was your first job? If you get to know people, you understand that there are strengths that you would never see on a piece of paper. And then you will understand, oh wow, this person has value. And how can I take that value and enhance it in my firm and make my profession better? That's that's sort of what my thinking is as a solution.
Karen Koehler :Like what? Be more concrete.
Mo Hamoudi :Be more concrete is when you are interviewing people for jobs, or when you're when you're making decisions about who belongs to an organization, and your organization has a set criteria, you look beyond those um those standards and procedures and look beyond it and look at the essence of a person. And the only way you can do that is spend some quality time with them, speak to them, get to know them. That's what I mean.
Karen Koehler :I've given up.
Mike Todd:She's giving up. Um, I don't remember. Did when we were asking the question about what you would have done in the situation where the uh court reporter asked Karen if she was the interpreter. What would you have done?
Karen Koehler :Well, he wanted to go back in there and no, I know, but I'm just asking him.
Mo Hamoudi :I wanted to go there and say to her that what because she didn't never apologize, I say you need to apologize. That's incredibly hurtful to uh one. Um, I understand that you may have made a mistake, but when you were told that she is not that she is a lawyer, that you should have apologized. I think that an apology matters. I think saying I'm sorry still matters.
Mike Todd:And do you think that you felt that way because you were embarrassed that it happened?
Mo Hamoudi :No, because I'm protective of her. You know, and it's just like it's just it's that it's because I'm she's my she's my she's my partner.
Karen Koehler :Like I said, Jimmy. And I just am very protective. I'm embarrassed.
Mike Todd:I'm embarrassed every time I hear somebody that somebody did that to you. I mean, I just don't think, and I don't think that way. I mean, I wouldn't walk into a room, like I said, I wouldn't walk into a room and and and sit and automatically assume that any of the people in that room are an attorney or anything else, unless the videographer, he had a bunch of equipment. Court reporter, they usually have a laptop and and they usually identify themselves as the court reporter. Um, but you know, if I'm somewhere else, I don't know if you're a paralegal or a legal assistant or an attorney. Yeah, it you could be anything, and I think that people in general now just get a little too comfortable with thinking that everything is the norm. Yeah, and that's why stuff like that happens.
Mo Hamoudi :I make these mistakes, but I just apologize. Yeah, because that's what you should. Yeah, that's just I'm sorry. I I thought you I apologize.
Karen Koehler :Well, so you know, I grew up, I mean, I'm racially ambiguous, you know. So I grew up with this being my norm. I so so a lot of it is not, it's not surprising to me. Um when I and I've told you the story of when my kids were little and I was home a lot more. We had, I lived in this on Samish Plateau, you know, suburban Microsoft paradise. And there were always there was not a week that went by that someone door-to-door people would would come by to sell something for the Mormons, you know, the missionaries. That there's constantly, it was a more it was a it was in the 80s, so a lot more than there is, you know, 80s and 90s, where now you don't people don't really come to your house door. And I can't even think of almost any occasion where anyone ever came up to me and started trying to sell me something. They would always they always thought either I was a babysitter or the help. And um, or and there were times when they did ask me if my parents were at home. And I would always say, No, no, I'm sorry, they're not at home. And I didn't take any offense to it after a while. I just thought, I'm just gonna go with it because I don't really want to, you know, hear their spiel. And I'd say, I'm sorry. And then there were times when they just would knock and say, Hi, um, are you the person of the house? And I said, Oh no, I'm sorry, they're not home right now.
Mike Todd:Yeah. So you started using it as a defense for yourself.
Karen Koehler :So I am not a person that this is like so shocking and earth-shattering that it's terrible. It gives me a lot of empathy for people like the physician I told you about. Yeah. Um where there's just so there's still so much prejudice and bias. It just is there, it is ingrained. And then when you look at our bars, it's because look at the stereotypes persist because the people that are the loudest are still the stereotypes. You know, that's I mean, they kind of are. And I um I have the you know, I will admit I made uncontrover I made controversial choices when I was a board member in my last years on the trial lawyer bar, including the naming of the awards. I voted against the naming renaming of the trial lawyer of the year award, the chomp Thomas Chambers Thom Thomas Chambers Trial Lawyer of the Year Award, even though he was my number one mentor, I loved him. And I was against Gerhard Letzing being called the Gerhard Letzing Color of Justice Award. All of the awards are named after my guys. So it's just like the statues. If you put all the statues, all these statues that we have all around the country of all the white guys, like there's no more space. And the thing, like I'm very involved in AAJ, where people collect chair awards like they're nothing, you know, I'm chair of this and I'm chair of that, I'm chair of this. And there's no space. Maybe they are progressive at heart, maybe, but by taking that space up, look at all the presidents who are the presidents currently of all of the organizations and the legal organizations that are not specialty minority bar associations. Like it's like the time that I got into a thing with you know, Dart and the and and the president at the time said, Well, we had a female, she just died. And I said, Yeah, well, she's a dead female. So, like, and then he said, Well, there are we are merit-based, you know, you have to get elected, and um women can join Washington women lawyers and these other bars. And this was in the 90s when this happened, and I said, I will never, you know, ever aspire to join your organization. And when I look at all the specialty bars, as good as they are, and I think they serve a great purpose. And super lawyers, what a you know, no offense. And I, you know, I have my very own opinions about super lawyers, which is not I won't say. Um they did put me on the cover once, so I have to be nice. Do I? But they finally had to just create their own section for for women because there was none. So then women got their own section. Like, but do I I don't want to be known as a great woman trial lawyer, I just want to be a great trial lawyer.
Mo Hamoudi :A couple of things. One, the Washington State Bar Association, the president is a person of color. Okay, okay, but wait, wait, and then and then and then the M3 Federal Bar Association. I'm going to be president of that organization currently. Currently, I'm saying who are you bookmarkmarks? I'm vice president.
Karen Koehler :Who are you bookmarked by?
Mo Hamoudi :Uh uh yeah, but okay, but I'm just saying, right? And then give it time to change. Okay. Give it a change, right? And but the other thing is you're talking about the names of the awards, and I just realized something is that my name is Muhammad. Huh? That is what I was born. That was my I know my name, but I was it was my given name, Muhammad Ali Hamoodi. And I was called Muhammad Ali when I was a child, growing up in the Middle East.
Karen Koehler :And when I came to this country, they would say they would say Muhammad Ali, what are you doing?
Mo Hamoudi :No, they would say Mo. Oh and I started people started to say mo.
Karen Koehler :I mean when you were a child.
Mo Hamoudi :When you were a child, no, they would say mamadali. I love it, mamadali. That's what they would say, and but when I say it lovingly, Mamadali. Okay, Mamat Ali, you know, and but um when I came to this country, they started to say mo.
Karen Koehler :So they started to say mo.
Mo Hamoudi :They started to say mo, and I took it, and I remember always going home, and my friends would come to the home and would say mo, and you would hear my mom say, It's mammat Ali. And you know, you know, you talk you you you know, it's just you talk about this names, and I'm just like thinking, like, you know, I I I think I conceded or I I I gave in. You assimilated when I was a child, yeah. And it's just sort of like, you know, I don't, you know, I can't turn back the clock. It's hard. You know, it's just like my mind is like completely rewired.
Karen Koehler :Mo, we were supposed to have this conversation, and by the end of it, you were supposed to have a conviction and feel way better. And you're going in reverse.
Mo Hamoudi :I know because you just talked about the names of the awards and stuff, and I was like, and I was just thinking about I just remembered that name, that name it just made me remember that.
Karen Koehler :Names are important.
Mo Hamoudi :That's so interesting. Do we have any questions?
Mike Todd:I don't know, Kathy. Do we have any questions?
Kassie Slugic :No, we do. We have some questions. Um okay, so we can't hear you.
Mike Todd:Hold on for a second.
Kassie Slugic :Oh okay, go ahead. We have a question. What are the ways that we can pressure the bars to do more than study the diversity issue every 10 years or so? They do a study and then the recommendations are not implemented.
Karen Koehler :I mean, all we can do is like, I think what we do is good, which is we talk about it and we don't act like it's just wonderful and we respect it. And we, you know, people are so apathetic. They see that the few people that look at the numbers, which most people don't, but the few people that look at the numbers outside of the circle that that did the numbers, it doesn't go anywhere.
Kassie Slugic :Yeah.
Mo Hamoudi :So for me, uh, because I'm gonna become president of the M3 Federal Bar Association, I'm gonna reach out to the president of the Washington State Bar Association and create a partnership and say, I am really interested in this aspiration. And what I believe it's it's engagement, uh, engaging uh the younger uh uh generation that's coming up, empowering them that that this is their space, and they can change it. And it doesn't have to be that way. I think that that's that's the solution I I think of off the top of my head to answer that question.
Karen Koehler :Well, it's also having you know more diversity in all aspects, and and don't get me wrong, there has been so many, there has been so much strides made, especially in our state, um, in the bar, in the very many of the various bar associations. And then there are similar bar associations that there has been no strides made. And where I believe that you see the most strides and the least strides, you're looking at the 80% and the 20%. That's why I have a thing about elite organizations. I think elite organizations are problematic by nature, because they are they select and they nurture the elite. And like um, I've been involved in organizations where once you were in the organization at this level, you never left it, even if you were no longer in no, like like on a board. You're you're no longer on the board, but you're still in it. So, like this is an AAJ where the board literally, there's like 45 members of it because once you're done, you're out. And who's out? They're all you know, 95 or more white males, and so it's that space of make room for other people. You don't have to be president of everything, give someone else a chance. Your ego, just check it a little bit. Do you really need to be president of five organizations, two at the same time, or three? Why do you need to do that? That lack of self-examination, but maybe it's not even lack of self-examination. The plaintiff bar, where there's competition for market share. Yeah, that's where the alpha male is gonna thrive, especially white alpha male. I'm being very racist in my conversation. It's generalities, okay? Not every I look not every white male is bad. Some of my best friends are white males. In fact, all of my partners used to be white male until Gemma joined.
Mo Hamoudi :But also some of the best stewards of helping diversify the bar are white male. And they and they go out of and and so because they understand and they and they say and they say, hey, look, I'm gonna be a leader and I'm gonna I'm gonna help guide the organization.
Karen Koehler :Everybody knows who those people are, yeah, yeah. Who have to be president of everything, one after the other, yeah, who are there to build the presence of their their law firm. Like you know who they are.
Mike Todd:Yes, yeah. And I I I'll say, as a lay person, I would never like all of those accolades that you're talking about that they've had, or or being on the top of boards. If I was looking for an attorney, that's not what I'm looking at.
Karen Koehler :Yeah, some people are they're dazzled. You should see, you should have seen the badges of honor of this one lawyer that we saw the other the other week. The whole firm is like, where can we buy all those badges?
Mo Hamoudi :Oh, yeah, there's a lot of badges. It made me think of back home, the military. Well, that's what I was gonna say. That's immediately what I thought of when you said it too.
Mike Todd:I was like, all those guys that have them all in their chest.
Karen Koehler :And and then, and then what's really just like, oh, what some of the things that just kill me, and I know we're almost close, is is like, again, like I know these are the same kind of attorneys who then say, Well, we should get another group, let's create another society. Well, yeah, like I said, and you have to be tested to show that you can do this X area practice of law. So now you're and you can, and you know, they got it certified through a bar association. So now, oh gosh, now if you want to do this kind of law and get this badge, you have to go through our test and get certified that you can do it. And then, boy, and then we're gonna refer cases to all of ourselves. So this is how this is it's pervasive, it's invasive. Yeah, there's just a lack of awareness of the dial. And because plaintiff lawyers, the really successful ones, are so aggressive when left unchecked. That's what happens.
Mike Todd:There's no, do we do we have another question, Cassie?
Kassie Slugic :We have one from uh Justice Faith Ireland. Do people these days pay attention to how they dress? When I was a rare female trial lawyer in 1970, I dressed to the nines, including a hat, so I wasn't taken for a court clerk.
Mo Hamoudi :That's a good one. What a great question from Justice Ireland.
Karen Koehler :And of course, she is iconic, and I will always fall short of her sartorial magnificence. But I have a picture of her because she did one of my podcasts, my first year of her with, you know, the group of men. She went to law school with my mom. Um, and it's crazy because she's like me, like we're small, and then everyone is else, you know, we only go up to the shoulders of everyone else. And so there's this misapmis apprehension of like small is weak, feminine is weak, like you know.
Mike Todd:But I guess my question would be Does the clothing make a difference?
Karen Koehler :I think the I was wearing a jacket yesterday.
Mike Todd:Yeah, the clothing does unfortunately a lawyer today.
Mo Hamoudi :Do I look like a lawyer? Who looks like more like the lawyer?
Mike Todd:Neither of you do, actually. I would say no, I'm wearing my whole case. I got my cardigan and jeans. I mean, you both look pretty casual, right? What I would say.
Karen Koehler :But if you close your eyes and you're listening to us, yeah, uh, do we sound like we're lawyers?
Mo Hamoudi :Yes. Okay, okay. Um, dress does especially in court.
Mike Todd:Dress in court totally, and you dress up, you dress up when you're in court.
Karen Koehler :Always, yeah. Well, that doesn't excuse the judge from leaning over and saying, Are you a lawyer? I look like a total lawyer. Yeah, I went to T in going into TSA with Jack and them thinking I was his client. I was wearing suit.
Mike Todd:Yeah.
Karen Koehler :Like, what else can I do?
Kassie Slugic :Yeah.
Mike Todd:Well, I don't, I I can't answer that question because I don't think there is anything you can do.
Karen Koehler :And from the, you know, from the great Justice Ireland who, yeah, trailblazer. Yeah.
Kassie Slugic :Yeah.
Karen Koehler :Any work, Cassie?
Kassie Slugic :We have one more. Karen, did you consider asking the reporter? Why are you asking me if I am the interpreter?
Mo Hamoudi :Oh, good question.
Karen Koehler :Yeah. You know, because I'm I'm just not, I didn't want to engage. I didn't want to answer her. I don't want to engage. I'm just part of it, I think, is because I'm it's happened too much.
Mike Todd:That's what I was gonna say. You didn't kind of want to lower yourself down to that.
Karen Koehler :I just, I just am tired of it. I've I've gone through all of the different scenarios of what could I have said? Should I try this way? Should I do that way? I've tried this way. And I mean, I'm not even talking that it's happened to me 20 or 30 times. It's happened to me so much more than that. So much more. So yes, and and it's accumulated, and I answered, I just told her I was a plaintiff lawyer, but I was cold.
Mike Todd:Yeah, because you've heard it so many times now.
Karen Koehler :But good suggestion. Good suggestion. I think that I just didn't want to get into like I didn't you didn't want to start something. I could have escalated that. If I had asked her that and she had not given me a good answer, I would have escalated it.
Mo Hamoudi :That question also is an opportunity for grace. Yeah.
Karen Koehler :It's a good question.
Mo Hamoudi :It's an opportunity to give the person.
Karen Koehler :But I'm not, I'm not I wasn't feeling graceful.
Mo Hamoudi :Yeah, you weren't feeling graceful.
Karen Koehler :I I would, you know, if she had said anything wrong, yeah, it would have been over.
Mike Todd:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Kassie Slugic :Yeah.
Mike Todd:Any other any other questions?
Kassie Slugic :Um, if everyone could please put your bar number in the chat, that would be wonderful. We had a a lot of great comments from Kathr Catherine Clark. Um and I would like to invite anyone if they would like to speak, I can uh give you access to your microphone. Um, let's see.
Karen Koehler :Well, yeah, let her speak if she's still there.
Kassie Slugic :Yeah, Catherine, can I let's see. Here she is.
Mo Hamoudi :We we kind of see Catherine.
Catherine Clark :I see her. Well, hang on. Let me figure out how do I get my video on. Not that bright. No, I just I really wanted to thank you guys and hi just desire. Hi, Face. Face has been so kind to me over the years. Can you guys hear me? Yes. Okay, you can't see me. So look at me. I'm a white lady, right? I am Catherine Clark. That is German, Swiss, English, Viking right there. The stereotype in my beautiful silk blouse, which I still love. But I don't come from much. I don't come from a stable family. I come from an abusive background. We know that my brother was murdered almost nine years ago. I had to earn my way in this world. Just like you, Karen, and just like you, Muhammad Ali, as I would say it. Um, but people think something of me because of how I physically present.
Karen Koehler :Yeah.
Catherine Clark :Right? And so I just so appreciate your comments about you can't um you gotta look at the paper and you gotta look at the person.
Mo Hamoudi :Yeah.
Catherine Clark :Now, and because I went to Gonzaga, I bombed the LSAT because I'm also dyslexic. Most people don't know that about me. Um, although I was a little more public about it this summer. And so I have had to, like everybody I think on this call, bust it hard and get good results. You know, I was legacy at Yale, though, and I turned it down because I wanted to go to the UW and be a student athlete. And that's exactly what I did. Um, and now we know that I work with student athletes, mostly football players. And some of them come from, as my comment said, from backgrounds that are not even remotely close to mine. And one example, and I want everyone to work on this really hard. Um I'm someone who lives an international life. My partner Mark is from New Zealand, and we have family throughout the planet. And one of my interns a few years ago is a young man named Edifuan Yulo Foshio, who plays for now the Cleveland Browns. He was a linebacker on that national championship run team. And everybody over at the UW calls him Eddie. His first name is spelled E-D-E-F-U-A-N. And I said, no, I will not do that. In the presence of his parents, I refer to him as Ed of One. And you can just see this already very large human being get even bigger when you pronounce his name right. When I was young, people called me Kathy. Can you imagine? Me. No. So I just really wanted to acknowledge you both for um putting yourselves out there and talking about your stories and really emphasizing the you can't tell by looking, you can't tell by the paper. You gotta talk to people. So thanks for the opportunity. I really appreciate it.
Karen Koehler :Love the comment. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. Well, that was good.
Mo Hamoudi :That's our first live uh CLE.
Karen Koehler :Yeah, but this is pretty much how we do it. Yeah, this is what it's like every time. We just talk and talk. But yeah, thank you for um Cassie and Mike for enabling us to do today. And you know, the thing about a question or topic like this is it raises more questions than we even started with. And so there is no solution, there's just continuation. And hopefully people will think about some of the stuff that we said, some of the, you know, kind of more radical things that we said. Like there should be exclusion. I mean exclusion, inclusion instead of exclusion in our in our legal groups.
Mike Todd:Yes.
Karen Koehler :Why do we have so much exclusion? Why don't we have more inclusion?
Mo Hamoudi :I'm gonna close with a song.
Karen Koehler :Okay, here we go. Are you gonna sing it?
Mo Hamoudi :You have to be carefully taught, you have to be carefully taught before it's too late. You have to be carefully taught before you're six, seven, or eight. That's from Rogers and Hammerstein.
Karen Koehler :There you go.
Mike Todd:Well, that's a good way to end it.
Karen Koehler :Thanks, everybody.
Mo Hamoudi :Thank you.
Karen Koehler :Thank you. Bye.
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