When Defense Surveillance Crosses The Line

In this episode of The Velvet Hammer™ Podcast, Karen Koehler, Mo Hamoudi, and Mike Todd unpack a real case in which a Somali client and a paralegal were followed after a defense medical exam on Martin Luther King Jr. Day. What initially looked like routine surveillance quickly escalated into fear, confusion, and a confrontation that exposed deeper issues around power, racial profiling, and defense strategy.

Karen shares trial stories where surveillance backfired spectacularly in front of juries. Mo explains why the situation immediately raised red flags, especially given the timing and the people involved. Together, they break down how CR-35 exams work, why defense teams use private investigators, and when those tactics cross ethical and human lines.

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Hosted by Karen Koehler and Mo Hamoudi, trial lawyers at Stritmatter Law, a nationally recognized plaintiff personal injury and civil rights law firm based in Washington State.

Produced by Mike Todd, Audio & Video Engineer, and Kassie Slugić, Executive Producer.

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Transcript

Setting The Stage: Surveillance 101

Mo Hamoudi 0:05

Dun Dun Dunna Dunna Dunna Dunna Duncan.

Mike Todd 0:15

It's Pink Panther. No, I know. I'm saying you gotta stop doing it, or we're gonna have to pay for it. Oh, okay.

Mo Hamoudi 0:23

Okay. Surveillance. All right, Detective. The Pink Panther.

Karen Koehler 0:29

All right.

Mo Hamoudi 0:30

What happened? What happened? Come on, go ahead.

Why Defendants Hire Investigators

Karen Koehler 0:32

Well, we're gonna tell you two stories about what happens when the defendants survey the plaintiff. What is surveillance? Surveillance is hiring a private investigator to tail, follow around, peer into, they can't bug um the plaintiff. Now, why would they do that? A, they're looking for fraud, B, they're just looking to hoping to find something, and C, they're doing it to harass.

Mo Hamoudi 1:04

And D, they're a peeping tom.

Karen Koehler 1:06

Well, they're not. That's the truth all the way through it. So but so we only represent terribly injured people. So this isn't the case of someone having some, you know, and I used to do whiplash cases, and I believe that they're true injuries, but feigning a whiplash injury and or feigning a work injury, but then they they catch them, you know, building up.

Mike Todd 1:31

Yeah, they say, I got a shoulder injury, I can't lift. Their job is lifting stuff all day. They they can't. And they're doing it, right?

Catastrophic Injury Client Profile

Karen Koehler 1:37

Yeah, okay. Our cases are a little bit worse than that, like by many folds. So this is a true story. I'll start with there's we're gonna tell two stories. So one was of a young man who was 26 and he was almost killed. His list of injuries was so long that it filled an entire page. Everything from um um you know, dissecting carotid artery both sides, um, to internal injuries that need to be fixed, to having permanent drop foot from a spinal injury, um, and uh oh my gosh, just humongous, like in the hospital, and we have for over a year, never being able to um be active again, um, having more surgeries even during the trial, um, infections, just catastrophic injuries. Like, can he even walk again was a miracle. Okay, you can't fake that stuff. Well, they tailed him. Now, why are you gonna tail someone like that? That you know that they're severely injured, they're a very sympathetic person, they're very nice, they lived with their parents, um uh on and off. They were, you know, what were they hoping to find?

Mike Todd 3:04

Well, from your reasons that they might be doing it, I would say that there's only a couple. Either they think that they're lying, which would be kind of crazy because of all the medical evidence, or they're trying to harass. I would think.

Using Surveillance Backfires In Court

Karen Koehler 3:19

I mean, the person over a million dollars in medical bills, okay? So because there's such a profound injury. So we we we um we find out that they have been surveyed and demand to get all the surveillance stuff. And normally you're allowed to get it. Well, the defense lawyer when my hated the most hated, um refused to provide it and goes and seeks a protective order. And the judge says, Okay, well, if you're gonna use it in trial, you gotta give it to her, and if you're not gonna use it, you don't have to. So they said, We're not gonna use it in trial. But I did. Because um he also had psychological issues, and uh he felt really paranoid, like people were following him. Well, they were. So the jury got to learn that he was being tailed by the defense.

Mike Todd 4:21

And did the defense know that he had paranoid?

Karen Koehler 4:24

Yeah, it was in the it was in the medical, it was in the medical.

Mike Todd 4:26

Yeah, so they knew that he had issues and they were doing something that would make him worse.

MLK Day Exam And A Tail

Karen Koehler 4:31

Yeah, so many people that have those kind of injuries end up having emotional injury. I mean, like their whole life has changed. Yeah. Um, he's a guy that could stand up and do a backflip, you know, and he'll never be able to do that. All of that kind of stuff. Super athletic. So that came in to court, and I can just remember the jury just giving the stink eye to the defense lawyer. They were so angry about that. And so when you are going to use surveillance as a defense lawyer, you better be sure that you're that there's a reason that's good because more often than not, it will backfire on you. Which brings us to this weekend. And let me just say we have some very interesting opponents on an Amazon case. And let me also say that we were arguing with one of those opponents last week because she was trying to make us have stuff due on Monday, which is MLK Day.

Mo Hamoudi 5:35

That's right.

Karen Koehler 5:36

And we said, we aren't working, we don't work on that. And in particular, me, Mo, and Kristen are all Bipok and we are observing this. And she was like, Well, she didn't care. And then I basically kind of you know wrote a very uh direct letter that this was direct harassment and unprofessional and almost reportable, and that got backtracked, right? Yeah, then the weekend comes. Yeah, and Mo is in a MLK tournament where he's a basketball coach for the bad news bears.

Mo Hamoudi 6:18

They're not the bad news bears, they're the good news boys, they're okay, they're the good news kids.

Karen Koehler 6:23

And then tell us the story, Mo.

Identifying The Investigator

Mo Hamoudi 6:26

Well, what happened was that I was coaching, and then my phone is blowing up, and it was the paralegal for our co-counsel, who's of Somalian descent, and he's blowing me up because the client was being examined by a medical doctor for the defense for the purposes of the case.

Karen Koehler 6:48

A CR-35 exam.

Mo Hamoudi 6:50

And and so what ended up happening is that at halftime I go out and I call him, I go, is everything okay? Fine. We're being tailed. What do you mean you're being tailed? This guy in like an SUV has been tailing us and he's got Oregon plates, and he's been following us for a while.

Karen Koehler 7:09

Wait, stop. What did you think? You have two Somalians. Yeah. You have what's going on in Minnesota against the Somalians. What did you think?

Mo Hamoudi 7:19

I thought he was an I it was Ice Agents.

Karen Koehler 7:21

On MLK Day targeting two black people.

Mo Hamoudi 7:23

Two black people. So, you know, I used to be Wait, two Somalian people. Yeah.

Karen Koehler 7:29

Well, but we're talking for racial profiling purposes.

Mike Todd 7:32

No, no, I'm just make I'm just making the correlation to what's going on in Minnesota.

Karen Koehler 7:36

We are too.

Mike Todd 7:37

I mean, I was that exact thing. I was correlation.

CR 35 Explained And Context

Mo Hamoudi 7:40

Yes. So, you know, I used to be a federal public defender. I said, okay, here's what you need to do. I want you to go pull over into a public like mall, like a like a strip mall, and then see if he follows. And then if he follows and parks, I want you to get out of your vehicle, turn your phone on, hold it in front of you, videotape him, take a photo of the plate, and then take a photo of him. So he does that exactly what I asked him. He gets out and he goes, and this guy freaks out.

Karen Koehler 8:15

And he gives me this guy being the potential.

Mo Hamoudi 8:20

The person in the car. The person in the car freaks out and and starts to be abrasive and gives the bird to the flips off or guy. And then he takes off. So he sent me the photos, and I immediately contacted someone I know to run the plate. And the plate comes back, investigator, Walker Investigations. So then I sent this information on MLK day ago, Karen. We got a bite.

Karen Koehler 8:59

When we pull him up, I gotta, I gotta go, we're it's a big one. We're we're actually so first of all, we're pissed, right? Because we told them, do not bother us today. We are not working. So he was like pulled out of his son's basketball game. I was at my that was Sunday. That was Monday.

Mo Hamoudi 9:19

Monday.

Karen Koehler 9:21

I don't know what I was doing, but we str we plotted and we strategized for a little bit and we decided to wait. Do you have my email?

Mike Todd 9:28

I think I do have your email. Okay, well let me talk to you. I got another question about that because that CR 35 exam.

Karen Koehler 9:35

You were gonna do it.

Mike Todd 9:36

That was a last minute decision, right?

Karen Koehler 9:39

No, well, they had so what had happened was there had been an earlier 35 examination, and this is a court rule examination, so they can do a defense medical, and their chosen person violated all the terms, and we walked out of it. I um Isaac in the office was accompanying the client, and and they walked out of it, understandably. Wait, that's that's a different case.

Mo Hamoudi 10:04

That's a different case.

Karen Koehler 10:05

Never mind, never mind. I get so confused.

Mo Hamoudi 10:07

Okay, but just say very quickly what a CR-35 examination is.

Why Tail A Permanently Injured Plaintiff

Karen Koehler 10:10

So a CR 35 is court rule 35, and that says, you know, when in dispute, a medical condition um can be evaluated by the other side. And so um this is in dispute. Um so that that you know, his medical condition. I mean, he's basically really from the base of his neck down. I can't even remember how many levels of his spine. He's completely fused. Like he can't even turn his head, he has to turn his whole body. Um, he cannot, there's nothing. It's pretty, it's pretty, it's one of the longest surgeries like that I've seen. It goes like halfway down his back from the bottom of his neck, halfway down his back. And he's um so anyway.

Mike Todd 10:57

I guess I was just asking, like, how did that exam end up happening on Martin Luther King Day when we weren't gonna be working that day?

Karen Koehler 11:05

Well, we weren't gonna be working that day, but they needed it done because we're close to the discovery cutoff, and we agreed to it, but we weren't doing it.

Mike Todd 11:15

Yeah, they scheduled this, is what I'm saying.

Karen Koehler 11:16

And our co-counsel, they agreed that they would um their paralegal would accompany the client. And so it was a two-hour exam. And so obviously the private investigator knew where to go because the defense had arranged.

Mike Todd 11:31

The defense had scheduled it and knew that they were gonna be there at the time.

Karen Koehler 11:34

But we didn't know at the time, he they just thought they were ICE agents. We didn't know until afterwards that this was what it was, but we knew quickly, like later that day.

Bias, Power, And Intimidation

Mo Hamoudi 11:43

So then we we talk, and then Karen on Tuesday sends an email, subject to Amazon. Your tail is the subject. Your tail. Dear counsel. Yesterday was plaintiff's second defense medical exam. As the paralegal and client were leaving, a vehicle that was tailing them, brackets, after the paralegal stopped to take a photo, close brackets, your professional investigator sent a direct message to our paralegal and the client. And there's a photo of the guy giving the bird. That's right. Mr. W gave the middle finger to the two black men he had been tailing as they attended the defense CR 35 exam on MLK Day, to be clear, and according to Wikipedia. Giving someone the middle finger, also known as flipping the bird or flipping someone off, is an obscene hand gesture. The gesture communicates moderate to extreme contempt and is roughly equivalent in meaning to bleep you, bleep off, or go bleep yourself, shove it up your bleep, or up yours. It is performed by showing the back of a hand that has only the middle finger extended upwards, though in some locales the thumb is extended.

Karen Koehler 13:17

I didn't know that.

The Flip-Off And Its Impact

Mo Hamoudi 13:18

Extending the finger is considered a symbol of contempt in several cultures, especially in the Western world. Many cultures use similar gestures to display their disrespect, although others use it to express pointing without intentional disrespect. Close quote. You are hereby unnoticed that the actions of your PI have caused emotional distress to plaintiff. Your attention is further directed to plaintiff's discovery requests, which require the prompt disclosure of all surveillance undertaken along with the video, journals, notes, etc. In addition, please provide a date for your investigators' deposition to occur within the next two weeks.

Karen Koehler 14:05

And what have we heard since then?

Mike Todd 14:13

Let me ask you a question.

Karen Koehler 14:14

Wait, that was so good.

Mike Todd 14:16

I read your emails better than you write them.

Karen Koehler 14:18

I know that that was an edited version that you read that I posted. Because the real email is, you know, worse. Yeah.

Mike Todd 14:26

So the CR35 exam was uh for the defense to examine our client and find out if the medical records match up with what we say our client has, right?

Next Steps: Discovery And Depositions

Karen Koehler 14:41

Well, also because they're permanent injuries. So sometimes they'll say, well, maybe they need more rehab, or maybe they, you know, they should have had more PT, or yeah, no, they don't need a future surgery, or they're not gonna have future arthritis. So it's really how how it's how the injury is now, like they're not disputing that he's had that many levels of his spine spine fuse, but it's like what next? The what next part.

Mike Todd 15:09

So then why would they be surveilling him right after that exam if they've already admitted all the injuries?

Karen Koehler 15:18

Well, he's they probably had him tailing him for long. I mean, he was following them, right? So it's probably for more than the exam, maybe in there for a couple days. I hope he had fun visiting him while he went to the mosque and then went home in his apartment building. But they yeah, they'll just sit there and watch and try to figure stuff out.

Mike Todd 15:37

So this has got to just be harassment, is is where I'm going. Like there's no real reason for them to be surveilling your client.

Karen Koehler 15:43

I'm not gonna defame them.

Mike Todd 15:45

I'm not asking you to fame them. I'm asking your opinion. If you were doing this, would would you think there was a reason for for that to be done?

Karen Koehler 15:54

Okay, this is the reason I'm defense. Here's what I think. As a defense. I think this is what they're thinking. Man, did you see when Karen used that surveillance video to get that $45 million verdict that she did the last time it happened? I think that we should go and survey this guy so that she can turn around and use it against us so she can get a $45 million verdict again with Mo. Maybe they'll even get more. I think that we should just be stupid and do this ridiculous thing for this poor guy, the Somali refugee who came to this country for a better life and got creamed by an Amazon driver. I who going the wrong way because he was directed the wrong way by the stupid app to deliver packages.

Mike Todd 16:39

And he was in a hurry because they're forced to do too much work.

Karen Koehler 16:42

I think that we should, I think that we should just, you know what? I really think we should do it on Martin Luther King Jr. Day because we we all know that you know Karen and Moe and Kristen aren't working. So we should make sure to follow him from the CR 35 exam. And let's just be horrible because hey, why not? That's what I think that they were doing.

Mike Todd 17:01

That's what you think? Okay.

Mo Hamoudi 17:03

I don't think I think I mean I love that because I think they weren't really thinking. But I do think that I do think that they were targeting this this client because he was Somalian. I do too. I think that, I think that it my um my assessment, my inference, it's racial animus towards him because they think that people of Somalian descent are fraudsters. And I think that that's why why they were doing it. And they did it on MLK Day because it's the last day that anybody from that community would think that they were being pursued by people. Like who would do it on a holiday? I think it was somewhat idiotic uh uh planning, but intentional design. So intentional idiots is what I think.

Mike Todd 17:53

Don't you think though that I mean Amazon's, I don't even know how much they're worth, but they're a very big company.

Karen Koehler 17:59

Well, we we can't let's let's just say that it wasn't Amazon, just so that like we don't get sued.

Mike Todd 18:04

Okay, so it's not necessarily Amazon, it's another c company.

Karen Koehler 18:08

It could be, you know, someone else could have wanted to have tail on them.

Mike Todd 18:11

But I guess the point that I'm getting at is you you mentioned that they might think that it was an ice agent. You mentioned that uh um they were being surveilled on Martin Luther King Day and that they were people of color. Um you mentioned that defense often will do this as an intimidation tactic. Doesn't it seem like whoever the defense is really trying to enforce their power to deter future legal action of this type against them? Oh yeah. I mean they're they're they're literally trying to beat our client into submission. Yeah, yeah.

Mo Hamoudi 19:02

Yeah, but I don't honestly, I don't think it was Amazon or any of these defense lawyers. It can't be. Yes, these are no, wait, wait, let me finish. I don't it can't be. Let me explain to you why. I'm listening because one, I don't know for certain if it's them, but two, they're incredibly talented and gifted people. And you would have to be a moron to do this. And I know that that these lawyers are exceptionally gifted, they're talented lawyers. It's not them. I refuse to believe that any of the defense lawyers involved in this were involved in this because they're a liar.

Karen Koehler 19:37

I'm just saying, you are a liar, you are a liar, you're a liar, you're a liar.

Mo Hamoudi 19:40

I'm being sarcastic. I don't, I won't buy it. I think that there's something else going on. I think that's another of us.

Mike Todd 19:49

I mean, if you want me to go full conspiracy, do you think they're they're using it in a way that they're gonna give you some kind of information that you guys are gonna then screw up the case somehow?

Mo Hamoudi 19:59

But I honestly cannot, I refuse to believe that any of the lawyers involved are are involved in this. You would have to be a buffoon to do this. That's not the first time something like this is happening. I refuse to believe. These are exceptional lawyers, these are talented lawyers.

Karen Koehler 20:16

No, they are not.

Mo Hamoudi 20:17

I I think they are.

Karen Koehler 20:18

I never heard of them before.

Mo Hamoudi 20:21

Well, it can't. That's what I'm saying. I'm totally excluding the possibility of any of the lawyers that that that we are suspecting.

Karen Koehler 20:28

He's talking both out by both sides.

Mo Hamoudi 20:30

Somebody had to do it, and it wasn't us, right? Well, we gotta pull the guy into a deposition, and I get to depose him.

Karen Koehler 20:36

I mean, I've seen a lot of of a lot of surveillance over you know my years. Flipping someone off is so stupid.

Mike Todd 20:47

I mean, well, and all you gotta do is just drive away.

Karen Koehler 20:50

Yeah, but come on.

Mike Todd 20:51

Could you imagine the lawyer saying, like, well, what do I do? Investigators, what do I do what do I do if they like make me? If I'm made. Uh well just. I'm not an investigator and I'll tell you what I've done. There's no way drove by. There's no way. I would have driven by and kept going. What do we do if I'm made? And then they made me come down and park my car somewhere. No, he's like on the phone, he's like, he's like, they made me, they made me. They made them off, give them the bird, give them the bird, give them a bird, give them a bird. I definitely no one's gonna tell him to flip them off. I guarantee that. Yeah, I just don't. That was just somebody who that was just the private investigator being an idiot, was what it was. He got caught, he then saw them filming him. He's I'm gonna guess he's of the Trump side just because of the way that he reacted, but I could be wrong. Yeah, yeah. But that's what he did. He got mad because the people that he were tailing, a couple, a couple people of color, walked up with their cameras just like ever, just like Red Agood's partner did in Minnesota. And he figured he had the right to tell them, F you, you don't have you don't have the right to film me.

Karen Koehler 22:00

Can I just say, just think about now, think about the two people that were that were tailed. First of all, the paralegal Abdi was really brave.

Mo Hamoudi 22:10

He was brave.

Karen Koehler 22:11

I mean, because he didn't know, and I don't know that he should have done. Um, like in this day and age when people can just shoot you through a window.

Mike Todd 22:18

Yeah, I mean, that's the thing. Just just recently.

Karen Koehler 22:21

He could have been he could have been shot.

Mo Hamoudi 22:23

He had he had the option not to do it, and he was like, uh-uh, I'm doing it.

Karen Koehler 22:27

But but he he did. I mean, so imagine how his heart was beating and how worried and scared he was, and he's there to really watch over and protect this client that's sitting in the car that has a dis you know pretty pretty major problem going on there. And imagine what the client that's in the car is thinking. Oh, yeah. Like they just had to go through a defense medical exam. This is an involuntary medical exam. This is not your doctor, this is not your friend. They're there there to say that there's that you're making this up or that you're really not that badly injured.

Mike Todd 23:00

Yeah, I can honestly say I've been to at least 12 to 15 of these exams, probably way more, but I uh I I've almost never seen a defense medical expert that wasn't asking questions that seemed like they were trying to prove that our client didn't have what they had.

Karen Koehler 23:17

Yeah. And so he's he's you know, he's exhausted. He's been there in there for like what three hours or something, two or three hours. Yeah. And had a drive there, driving back on on MLK Day, and he is part of the Somali community, and they are very well of what's going on around, you know, and and dealing with in Minnesota, and this is what they're encountering. Like the whole thing was just pathetic. And it makes me angry.

Mike Todd 23:46

Yeah, it does.

Karen Koehler 23:48

I mean, we are laughing about it because it's such it's so stupid, it's absurd, but it's also it's mean, it's mean and it's nasty, and so I have no feelings like modes, like, how can such wonderful lawyers do such a thing? I'm like epoxum, you you, you know, you creeps, anybody creepy enough to order this. And if your client said or your insurance company said, we want you to do this, then you know what? You live a pathetic life that you're gonna just do what someone says um like that for no good reason.

Mo Hamoudi 24:23

So wait, what you're saying is is that it could be that an insurance company told the lawyers to do this?

Karen Koehler 24:28

I don't know. I don't know because as we all know, Amazon doesn't need an insurance company.

Mo Hamoudi 24:34

That's right. I just refuse to believe that lawyers are involved. I mean, if it is, I will be You know the lawyers are involved. Let's let's be honest.

Karen Koehler 24:41

If if it's like uh The lawyers are a thousand percent involved, Mo. You they would this would never happen without a lawyer doing it. Are you certain a thousand percent No, they could totally have it separate. No, no, no. You know why? Because in a legal case like this, the lawyer has to know.

Mike Todd 25:00

They wouldn't have to know that the surveillance is happening, they'd have to know the product that they got from the surveillance.

Karen Koehler 25:04

No, they have to know that the surveillance because it's part of the legal thing. Oh in fact, in fact, the again, this is that case where we got the verdict that the jury gave them the stink eye. They tried to prevent us from telling the jury that he was surveyed. And the judge said, you know what? You didn't come to me and ask for it to surveil. You didn't give me reason for you to engage in the surveillance. This was not a litigation tactic. This is outside of litigation. You chose to do it, so they get to talk about it.

Mike Todd 25:36

But do I mean you are I I thought you already said that you don't know that they did it. So if you don't know that they did it, and it was somebody else. I said it with a wink, Mike. No, I know you did, but my point is if you can't prove that they did it, and they had an outside company hire the private investigator to do that job.

Karen Koehler 25:56

We'll figure it out. We're gonna figure out that's why I asked, that's why I asked for the deposition, and that's why I asked.

Mo Hamoudi 26:01

We're gonna we're gonna get we're gonna get to the bottom of this one. We're gonna get to the bottom.

Karen Koehler 26:06

We're gonna dig it.

Mike Todd 26:08

Does the private investigator have to say who hired them?

Mo Hamoudi 26:11

Absolutely. Okay, and we'll get the so then you'll know who hired him, and then you'll then you'll be able to follow the path.

Karen Koehler 26:17

Correct.

Mo Hamoudi 26:18

So we continued. We will get to the bottom of this. I refuse to believe that a lawyer was involved because if they were, they are okay, Mo. That's the bet then.

Mike Todd 26:28

That's the bet. If they were involved.

Karen Koehler 26:31

He loses every bet and he never pays up. Do you think that's the one?

Mike Todd 26:33

Well, that's what I was gonna say. What Karen, what does he lose if he loses? What do I lose?

Karen Koehler 26:37

You gotta take Mike to the movies.

Mo Hamoudi 26:41

No, you gotta take us both to the movies. I'll take you both to the movies. Okay.

Karen Koehler 26:45

There you go.

Mo Hamoudi 26:45

Okay, that's a fair.

Karen Koehler 26:46

Wait, not just the movie, Cinerama and Chocolate Popcorn.

Mo Hamoudi 26:48

Chocolate popcorn cinorama to be continued. Okay. Until next time.

Karen Koehler 26:53

He's losing.