Lawyer Burnout and How It Can Affect Clients

Episode 17: Lawyer Burnout and How It Can Affect Clients

This is Part 3 of a three-part series on mental and physical health for trial lawyers.

In this episode of The Velvet Hammer™ Podcast, Karen Koehler, Mo Hamoudi, and Mike Todd have an honest conversation about lawyer burnout, mental health, substance abuse culture in the legal profession, and the dangerous reality of the “just keep going” mentality. Karen reflects on years of pushing through exhaustion while leading a law firm during the pandemic. Mo describes burnout as becoming untethered from yourself, losing meaning, and operating without purpose. Mike explains how burnout disconnects people from the things they once loved and how quickly that spiral can affect judgment, work, and relationships.

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Hosted by Karen Koehler and Mo Hamoudi, trial lawyers at Stritmatter Law, a nationally recognized plaintiff personal injury and civil rights law firm based in Washington State. 

Produced by Mike Todd, Audio & Video Engineer, and Kassie Slugić, Executive Producer. 

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Transcript

Why Work Stress Becomes Risk

Karen Koehler 0:06

All right. This is episode number three on Episode number two.

Mo Hamoudi 0:10

Two.

Karen Koehler 0:10

No, it's number three. Number one was physical. Number two is mental health personally. And number three is going to be how our taking care of our mental health or not affects our responsibilities at work.

Mo Hamoudi 0:27

God, that's a big one. Lot to unpack.

Karen Koehler 0:30

Well, there's an RPC on it.

What Lawyer Burnout Looks Like

Mo Hamoudi 0:32

Oh, God. RPC.

Mike Todd 0:33

Let me just give you a quick uh uh AI breakdown. All right, like that. Lawyer burnout is a chronic state of physical, emotional, and mental exhaustion caused by high stress environments, long hours, and relentless perfectionism, affecting over 50% of surveyed lawyers. It leads to cynicism, reduced efficiency, insomnia, and anxiety. Overcoming it requires setting firm boundaries, self-care, and potential workplace changes. The signs can be constant exhaustion, reduced performance, negativity and isolation, physical issues such as insomnia, headaches, weakened immunity and high blood pressure, and substance abuse.

Karen Koehler 1:15

Yes. So it's very serious because it is very serious. Because you don't hear about it as often now, which is also worrisome. Um, but the substance abuse uh issue is pretty well known. Yeah. I think it's harder to see now because now people work remotely. Um you don't see them going out after work and doing it in public.

Mike Todd 1:38

Well, since since COVID in general, m people are going out less overall.

Karen Koehler 1:42

So it doesn't mean that they that they stop drinking.

Mike Todd 1:46

Drinking or doing drugs.

Karen Koehler 1:48

Yeah.

Mike Todd 1:50

And some of those drugs, I mean that's the thing. Some of those things are done for the purpose of trying to continue that overworkedness.

Karen Koehler 1:57

Yeah.

Mike Todd 1:57

You know, using uh using uh smart drugs and stuff like that that keep you focused or awake and and and same problem. Then they're overextending themselves.

Karen Koehler 2:09

So I mean, I've touched on this and and I said last last time, as you know, um, I am the I'm the person that keeps going mentality. I just and I was thinking about like that was something that was trained, you were I was trained on at a very early age.

Mike Todd 2:29

Well, I think everybody from you know You just keep on going. Our generations, that was that was the way to go. You don't stop.

Karen Koehler 2:36

No, and and and there's a lot of positive reasons why not to. I can remember something as ambiguous as being in uh like a piano recital and flubbing it, but I knew that you just keep going. And um you just keep going. Uh even if you're scared or even if you freak yourself out, you just keep going. And that's like the most easy kind of you know, example. It was it wasn't it was not the result of anything other than that's what you're supposed to do. As a you know this as a musician, you just keep on going. No, you just skip. Maybe people just thought, well, that was just meant to be.

Mike Todd 3:14

Nobody will notice if you keep playing. Yeah. I mean, uh a few people will, but the mostly the audience won't notice.

Karen Koehler 3:19

But but but that metaphor carries over to what we're talking about, and especially when people are dependent upon you, it's hard if you're responsible, you know, feel responsible to stop. And so on a personal level, um, you know, about four years ago, five four to five years ago, in one of my many episodes of this is Karen's yearly or bi-yearly letter announcing different things, I um started to realize that I was burnout. I mean, I pretty much hit a lot of the markers, not all of those markers. Obviously, I don't do drugs or alcohol, um, I don't have insomnia, I just don't sleep very much. But um I did feel oppressed and I felt like, how can I keep doing this? And I pretty much worked all the way through um that experience because I don't feel that way anymore. You know, Denny came here, Mo came here, it really started changing, and I and I, you know, I I I did my own work on myself too. I was talking to two different two different coaches, Darien and then Sherry, my other coach. Sherry Vernon, by the way, she's exceptional.

Mo Hamoudi 4:38

The best.

Karen Koehler 4:38

Counting Shari Vernon, let me just say, free advertisement. Um the best. She um helped me uh basically prioritize, but I never did confront it and deal with it. I had to let it, I my issue was I just couldn't keep doing this much. Um, but I was. Most people would, and and I had the risk of if I hadn't seen a doctor, had my event, you know, doing something, some permanent damage. But I can remember just not being quite as happy as I normally am. I'm normally a pretty happy person. I can remember being, I didn't never dreaded work, but I was, and plus it was in the pandemic.

When Burnout Starts Brewing

Mike Todd 5:26

Yeah.

Malpractice Risk And Workplace Silence

Karen Koehler 5:27

But that state of being I knew was even I knew was not sustainable. What I've seen in real life and what I've experienced um in my job site is that most people, when they get to a point of burnout, overstay it, like I did, not as long, and then collapse. In some way, something bad is going to happen. That's been my experience of seeing friends, other colleagues, some co-workers, um, some family. That is typically what happens. You don't just have a burnout and suddenly it's a long time brewing. You pass that point of res of no return. You should have stopped before you became burnout and dealt with it, but you didn't. You just kept going and now you're burned out, and that's a really dangerous, dangerous time. Because not only for you personally, but your clients, your your law firm, or your business, whatever it is, you have these extraordinary professional duties, or your job is in jeopardy. Your license can be pulled. Um, bad things can happen, you can commit malpractice, you're not thinking as clearly. Things are more foggy, you're not getting all the tasks, you become less efficient. And I don't really know how you deal with that. I think that in this profession, we tend to try to be proactive in the firm if we see someone doing it. Like we can tell like somebody's really slowing down. We will try to be proactive, but it's also like there's a sense of, well, it's none of my business. Should I be saying that?

Mike Todd 7:24

That can be really tough trying to tell somebody what to do.

Karen Koehler 7:27

Should I talk to somebody? Like I have, I've crossed those lines with people. Um, but it's it is that's because you know I'm managing partner, but it is very delicate, and you have to have really good relationships with people to be able to do that to begin with. But it's just not how our culture is. Our culture is suck it up and get over it and keep going.

Mo Hamoudi 7:56

What about you, Mo? Um, just you're talking about this, and I feel myself like because you know, I I I don't I wouldn't call it triggered, but I feel what you're saying, and because I felt this, you know, I think the hardest part is getting burned out, like understanding what that means, like identifying it.

Karen Koehler 8:20

Have you ever been burnt out?

Mo Hamoudi 8:21

I've burned I've I've yeah, several times in my life. Yeah, I've burned out and different types of burnout up.

Karen Koehler 8:26

And you're better at describing your emotions than I am. I'm like terrible at it, as you can tell. So if you could help the listener, not because I'm trying to put you on the spot, but just because I am deficient in my ability to explain my emotions because I am a robot AI creature. Um slightly joking, but not really. But Mo, you you're able to much more eloquently because you're in better contact with your emotions.

Mo Hamoudi 8:58

Yeah.

Karen Koehler 9:00

Than I am. Can you, and and honestly, can I just say, yes, I call him Moody Hamoody, um, because he calls himself Moody Hamoody. But I do think that there's something really precious about that ability to be in touch with your emotions, especially if you're, you know, a guy that likes to go to the woods and shoot guns and wrestle, do taekwondo or jujutsu and stuff. Like it's a it's a I think that is a great thing to be able to do.

Mo Hamoudi 9:31

I wanna I wish I could do it better. I I think I want I think I can talk about something that I can say is that burning out burning out is not specific to work. Like burning out can just happen. And it's when your nervous system just goes out of whack or starts to unravel and stuff. And probably one example of me burning out was in New York City when uh Well, wait, you don't have to tell us personal circumstances.

How Burnout Feels In Your Body

Karen Koehler 9:58

What I'd rather you do, I mean, unless you want to, but what I was hoping you could do is just tell us what that feels like. Because I'm not good at I I didn't do a good job at if I didn't want to cut you off, but I also didn't want you have to that's fine.

Mo Hamoudi 10:12

I don't have to tell personal circles, but what it feels like is is that you feel untethered from ground and body, and um you are uh your breathing is quickened at various times. You're constantly reeling in your mind, you're spinning, you're spinning, spinning, spinning, you're not catastrophizing, you're not really going anywhere, your day is not being spent in what I call the planned productive manner. Your time and energy is not protected, your um nervous system is not calm, and you have you're not operating with purpose. You're not operating with meaning in your life, which is you're not operating within your value system. You're just sort of functioning, and you can tell that you are physically not well, or nervous-wise, physiologically, you're not feeling well. And and so what sometimes people do, sometimes people Can I just stop and pause there?

Karen Koehler 11:21

Because my experiences that helped me to hear you say that, but I don't share all of those traits, and I wanted to know if if that resonated with Mike when you've been burnout.

Disconnection And Autopilot Work

Mike Todd 11:31

Um, it does. Okay. I'd say uh the the disconnection is what I would call the main symptom that I've always noticed whenever I'm experiencing burnout. And uh it's happened to me with music before where I was doing too much in it, you know, in it because that's something that I do after work. Um, but it can take up a ton of my time after work, and then you're doing you know, at that point, sometimes it's like I've got a second job. And the physical part, I mean, all feel bad all the time. Um headaches, neck aches, yeah. Um but it's more the disconnected thing where it's like you don't feel connected to the things that you like to do in life, often is how I feel. And and if it if it's work related, I don't want to do anything. Um that's real, like I I really have lost interest in it all. So at that point, I'm running on autopilot. Yeah, you know, and that's why things can go bad really easily then. Things can be messed up very easily then. And and that then perpetuates that cycle, even worse. If something bad happens, then you're even more depressed about it.

Mo Hamoudi 12:56

Yeah, I so that's a very good description. It skews your judgment, so like you're not making choices in the way in which you would when you're not like that. The second thing is I at least I think it leads to depression. Oh, yeah. And to me, depression to me is very I have a very specific definition for it as is that you stop feeling. So to me, depression is not a state of sadness, it's a state of disinterestedness where you're not emoting or emotionally responding to stimuli. And you're just sort of shut down. And so, you know, there's like a process where as the nervous system is shooting disoriented, you know, all over the place, it'll then go into this space, then it'll go into the depression.

Mike Todd 13:46

So well, and that's also when people, you know, if people are prone to abusing things, that's when that starts, whether it's bad behavior or drugs and alcohol or you know, dangerous behavior. Yes. All of those things is when that stuff comes out. And and like I said, that then just compounds everything. You know, it gets it gets worse and worse and worse.

Depression And Seeking A Jolt

Mo Hamoudi 14:08

And what's super interesting is you say the alcohol and the and dangerous judgment choices come in, they're intended to re-stimuli your nervous system. Yeah, because you need the stimulus. Like, so alcohol will stimulate you, you know, but then as a depressive or the drug will stimulate you, or behavior, you want to say, and I've had somebody say this to me, it says, you are looking to want to feel alive again because you don't feel alive anymore. Yeah, that's that's why that's what's driving the behavior. So I was like, oh my god.

Karen Koehler 14:43

So I feel like I feel like you guys have definitely bonded over this, and I feel very excluded because I do not go through that. When I talk about burnout, yeah, I literally just mean like I'm the little engine that could, and then slowly it seems like I don't want to.

Mike Todd 15:05

Oh no.

Karen Koehler 15:06

That's all that it is. I don't have a desire to I don't feel I don't do the with this the separation thing. I literally just feel like I can't do this, I'm running out of steam. And there's a slight I think my kids would agree with this, like I am not as silly and joyful as I probably normally am, because I'm pretty silly and pretty joyful. There's just a down a notch. Um, but I don't feel almost anything that you guys described, and that's either because I do not feel it because it's there and I just disregard it, or I literally don't feel it. I don't know which one it is.

Mike Todd 15:48

Yeah, or I think everybody has different reactions and and uh intensity of their emotions, and it's possible that you just run more even.

Karen Koehler 16:01

I am quite an even person. I mean you just run even. It's like I definitely feel like because I still You still notice a change. I do. And it's just that like how am I gonna keep doing this? I'm and it's more of a fatigue feeling.

Mike Todd 16:16

Where I don't stop. Like the pain and that stuff happens and you keep going.

Karen Koehler 16:20

I keep that's why I keep like that's why I told you. I think that I was burnt out for several years, but I Oh you were, I'm sure.

Mike Todd 16:27

I I I I'm sure you were.

Karen Koehler 16:28

Yeah.

Mike Todd 16:29

But you just kept going.

Karen Koehler 16:30

I keep going.

Mike Todd 16:31

And and and and so do Mo and I. That's the thing. It's all of that stuff happens.

Karen Koehler 16:35

But you and it's not until now that I'm able to recognize it. You guys have a richer experience. You're just quite angry, you don't get enough. You have a richer experience of being burnt out. I've had this very subpar experience.

Mo Hamoudi 16:49

Maybe just because you're not describing it or had the opportunity to like sit with somebody and contextualize it.

Karen Koehler 16:56

I'm listening to you guys and I can listen and feel what people and I really cannot I cannot go. I I like, yeah, that doesn't even be.

Mike Todd 17:03

I've said stuff like this before. This isn't the first time I've heard that.

Karen Koehler 17:06

Yeah. But it's cool that you guys are bonding over it, so please continue.

Mo Hamoudi 17:11

One of the things is I've learned is that when you're very young, yeah, you developed a response mechanism to nervous system failures or something.

Triggers Boundaries And Real Recovery

Karen Koehler 17:19

But I think you guys did a great job of explaining it. And so let's talk about, let me just talk about the thing that really resonated. It didn't resonate, it really didn't resonate with me, and I thought this is the thing that's really a problem. And you guys talked about basically a severing. Okay, which I don't even I didn't have that. Um and I would think, and not wanting to come back, I would think that that has to be extremely concerning because of how responsible both of you guys are, right? You're responsible for running the this firm and doing all this stuff, you're responsible ethically to your clients. Like, how does that like the fact that you don't that you have that experience, does that in it in and of itself cause you distress?

Mike Todd 18:10

I it doesn't for me anymore because I learned how to deal with it. To avoid it. And that took a long time. Yeah. You know, I I won't say that that's an easy thing to do, but I learned what a lot of my triggers were, the way that I reacted to stuff, um, and you know, and it also helps that I'm started taking medication. Um, all of those things help deal with it, but it's also it's mainly recognizing when it's happening and dealing with it before it goes too long. Like you said, you thought you were doing it for a long time. If that can be years, then you definitely could have made changes before then that would have affected it. Taking time off, spending more time in relaxing situations, doing meditation, you know, finding hobbies that help you relax. All of those things are things that you can do to keep burnout from happening, or just working less. Really, that's the main thing.

Karen Koehler 19:10

Yeah.

Mike Todd 19:10

Taking less responsibility in the workplace. And some people can't do that.

Karen Koehler 19:15

Yeah.

Mike Todd 19:16

And and they will then continue to deal with burnout if they don't find a way to deal.

Karen Koehler 19:20

How do you come out of it?

Mike Todd 19:22

How do I come out of it?

Support And Meaning As Anchors

Karen Koehler 19:23

Yeah, Mo t I mean, Mike told us how he comes out of the way. Well, I mean, like right now in my life. Well, you can use any part and talk.

The Joy Trap Of Overcommitting

Mo Hamoudi 19:29

I mean, like I think that you are very good in like just just pip talk to people that may might be suffering from burnout. Well, if you're suffering from burnout, you you know, I always say there are two things, like support and meaning. They work hand in hand. Support is your circle, the people who support you. And meaning is your value system, but it's also your social value system, right? Like who's your who do you who's your tribe and people and you know, thing. You have to tap into support and meaning. And and so one of the things I do is I've developed is I go to my support system and I let them uh support me. And I tell them I'm I'm overwhelmed, or I'm starting to feel overwhelmed. And then I listen to what they tell me. And so they'll tell me, like, you have to organize your life more. You have to be more this. And you know, I have people who I ask, and they tell me, you gotta do this more for yourself, you gotta do this more for yourself. And I take their advice. Do you? I do.

Karen Koehler 20:37

I do for the let me just let exhibit A. Mo decided he was gonna not only start an entire basketball team for his 10-year-old at school, that he was gonna coach it on top of having this job, his pro bono work, being president of the Federal Bar Association, teaching class at the Seattle University, and wanting to go play basketball every once in a while himself. That's a good example. He decides, he decides, and and and I say, uh, you need to stop coaching next to you. You can't do this again. Because he's it's he goes to these tournaments, he's gone Friday, I'm Saturday, Sunday, and then he wants to take him to dinner and all this stuff and overfunction because that's who he is. Oh, you should see their little faces. And then he goes and he, I'm gonna violate patient a client patient. Then he goes and tells his coach that, and and she says, Yeah, you need to like make priorities inside him. He's like, Okay, I'm not gonna do it. And then three weeks later, he says, Yeah, I'm gonna coach him next year again.

Mo Hamoudi 21:37

So that's a good example.

Mike Todd 21:38

Here's a question though, yeah. That I'll say. You're so burnt out. Does the does the coaching of the team give you joy and and takeaway from the work week and all that kind of stuff? So much joy. So that's the thing. So it's it's a it's a little bit of a balance. Then doesn't but he needs to he probably needs to find something else not to do when you do that.

Karen Koehler 22:04

Well, he also said that. That he also says, here's his his I'm just gonna blast your personal stuff. His excuse is, well, it's time with my son. I said, it's time with your son and 12 other kids.

Mike Todd 22:16

Yeah, but it's still time with his son. Like I said, I think that it's I think that that is something that's on the positive side. And while some of the positives still can cause you stress, I think that that's the solution to a lot of it, is finding the balance between those things.

Karen Koehler 22:33

Yeah, you gotta make your but you gotta make your decisions, right? You can't do that. That's true.

Mike Todd 22:36

He's still overextending himself. Don't get me wrong.

Mo Hamoudi 22:39

You're right.

Mike Todd 22:40

Yeah, we're all right. You're both right.

Mo Hamoudi 22:42

You're both completely right. And so where I struggle is is that where you say support and meaning, is that I want I like I do too much to try to extract meaning out of my life because that's like my my uh anchor. That's like what my my my that's that's what holds me, you know, because if I don't have that, if I don't have meaning, like that's where I get into trouble. And so um but she's right, I do overextend myself. So but I listen to the other stuff that you've said.

Karen Koehler 23:18

Whatever. But but yeah, you know, this is a serious subject. It is a serious subject. And and there are people that do not recover from this. No. Or there are people that make a fatal mistake.

Mike Todd 23:32

Yeah, that's what I was gonna say. This is the reason for attorneys to be paying attention to this. Yeah, this could very badly affect your clients.

Karen Koehler 23:38

Yeah.

Lawyer Drinking Culture And Its Costs

Mo Hamoudi 23:39

Yeah, I you have to, as a lawyer, you know, the the rules of professional conduct make make it part of the objective is to make sure that you are able to give advice and represent your client. And if you are not able to take care of yourself and that interferes with your ability, you have a responsibility. The bar has a lot of resources to help you. There's programs that help lawyers with addiction, with with substance use, but where I see it is the lawyer events, like socializing events.

Mike Todd 24:11

Well, I was gonna say that's the thing. It's everyone's everyone's it's the convention, so hey, let's all get loaded.

Karen Koehler 24:17

Yeah, and and then you go that's and that's a culture that they're that's a culture. Why why is that okay? Why why is there always so much drinking? I mean, I've grown up, you know, seeing this. Like, and the big thing for me, one of the reasons, again, I'm not just marginalized because I'm a female. I was marginalized because I was a female who had three children who had to get home to, and I couldn't go to the you know, social hours after work where people were in the bars. I don't understand bar culture at all. It's just not my culture. And sometimes I wish it was because it looks kind of fun. Like, well, there's that cute little bar. That would be so fun. You just go in there and hang out with your neighborhood friends. It sounds great. But the drinking part doesn't resonate with me at all. But for the lawyer events, it is the high point of it.

Mo Hamoudi 25:04

Because there's a distinction between going to an event, having a drink or two drinks, and having so many drinks that you're inebriated. And now, remember, you're out there as a professional lawyer, and your behavior is going to obviously change if you're inebriated. You're not the same lawyer in a courtroom.

Karen Koehler 25:24

But if 11% of the population has alcohol use disorder, then why aren't we more sensitive culturally to that?

Mike Todd 25:32

Because it's a masculine thing. Being able to drink means you're powerful.

Karen Koehler 25:36

Well, I know. Means you're tough.

Mike Todd 25:39

No, I I I'm not saying it's true. I'm saying that's what people think. It's that old school male-dominated lawyer thing. Hey, we're all sitting down with a cigar and a thing of scotch.

Karen Koehler 25:49

It's just not, it's just not. I mean, this firm has gone through a cultural shift. We would do present exchanges, which could be very fun, you know, the white elephant present exchanges. But 90% of it was alcohol.

Mo Hamoudi 26:02

It was always alcohol. You know, that's so true. That you know, I so many gifts I received. And that's fine, right?

Karen Koehler 26:09

For people that can that can like it and drink it responsibly, but what about the 11% of the people there that are secretly, because they don't come out and say it, have an alcohol use disorder.

Mike Todd 26:19

Yeah, yeah.

Karen Koehler 26:20

That's a big percentage.

Mike Todd 26:21

Or just don't drink. Like it w people that don't drink at all, are they gonna want to have alcohol as a gift? Probably not.

Karen Koehler 26:28

I just give I give I I give it away. I used to drink so much. I mean, no offense, but someone just came over the other day and brought me a bottle of wine. And it's very lovely. Thank you for the I mean I'm gonna always say thank you very much, but it's going to somewhere else since I don't drink.

Mike Todd 26:42

Usually these days we give it to whatever we go to another party, we just hand it off to them.

Karen Koehler 26:47

Yeah.

Mike Todd 26:47

Yeah.

Karen Koehler 26:48

But you know, the the the fundamental issue at the bottom or at the top of what this should be is yes, there's a personal cost if when we don't take care of ourselves and our mental health as best as we can. But there's also a cost to other people that are dependent upon us.

Mo Hamoudi 27:09

Yeah, you know, you have to protect your time and energy, calm your nervous system, get support and meaning, and find ways to have like a plan to do that. Otherwise, you're just at risk, you know, if you're working as long as Karen and I or you are, burning out.

Mike Todd 27:30

I wouldn't say you're at risk. I think it's just a matter of time. A matter of time.

Karen Koehler 27:33

It is a matter of time, which in itself will cause stress and distress to you because you're worried that, you know, let's say that you're a solo practitioner. Yeah.

Mike Todd 27:42

Who's what happens when everything falls apart?

Karen Koehler 27:44

I mean, that's your whole income. That their clients are you, I don't have a backup plan. I mean, and you have fallen apart. Now now just the repercussions are enormous on all levels. And can you get that back? So it's really fraught. We don't spend enough time with it because people are embarrassed about it.

Mo Hamoudi 28:07

Good episode. Yeah.