The start of a trial

Episode 18: The start of a trial

In this episode of The Velvet Hammer™ Podcast, Karen Koehler, Mo Hamoudi, and Mike Todd talk about Karen and Mo starting a new trial.  What goes through their heads as they prepare and as the trial begins.

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Hosted by Karen Koehler and Mo Hamoudi, trial lawyers at Stritmatter Law, a nationally recognized plaintiff personal injury and civil rights law firm based in Washington State. 

Produced by Mike Todd, Audio & Video Engineer, and Kassie Slugić, Executive Producer. 

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Subscribe for bold takes, heartfelt moments, and the unfiltered reality of what it means to live and lead as a trial lawyer at Stritmatter Law. 

🎧 Stay Connected with The Velvet Hammer™ Podcast

Hosted by Karen Koehler and Mo Hamoudi, trial lawyers at Stritmatter Law, a nationally recognized plaintiff personal injury and civil rights law firm based in Washington State. 

Produced by Mike Todd, Audio & Video Engineer, and Kassie Slugić, Executive Producer. 

Watch full episodes on YouTube
Follow us on Instagram, TikTok & Facebook
📬 Questions or topic ideas? Email us at thevelvethammerpodcast@stritmatter.com

 🔥 New episodes every Wednesday
Subscribe for bold takes, heartfelt moments, and the unfiltered reality of what it means to live and lead as a trial lawyer at Stritmatter Law. 

Transcript

Back In The Kitchen

Mo Hamoudi 0:06

Okay, we're back in the kitchen, ready to cook.

Karen Koehler 0:09

We are in trial.

Mo Hamoudi 0:10

Well, yeah.

Karen Koehler 0:12

We started trial on Monday. No, it was supposed to be Monday.

Mo Hamoudi 0:18

Monday. We started yesterday, officially.

Karen Koehler 0:21

So let's let's say what happened. So this is a case against the state. We won't talk about the case at all. Uh because so this can be broadcast whenever. It's just about how we feel about trial. And I was in New York. I've been uh on the East Coast for about five weeks.

Mike Todd 0:38

Yeah, you just got back.

Motions Schedule And Jury Pool

Karen Koehler 0:39

And my plan was to get back the day before trial. So uh on Sunday, as I'm getting ready to like, you know, kind of clean up and put stuff away, there's a an email comes in to the court saying, Oh, we're gonna do the Zoom at such and such time tomorrow. And I'm like, what? No, we're not, because I'm traveling. And I'm getting ready to email back the bailiff and say, I know you're off by day. When I go back and realize in my memory, because it didn't show up on the court's calendar, he was gonna do some jury stuff. So I thought, oh no. So I called Mo and I said, Well, you're gonna do it because I'm gonna be on a plane. Yeah. Monday morning, bailiff says, we didn't get enough jurors, so we can't close the um pool yet. So we'll do that on a Wednesday. So we're gonna, you know, start and do our motions starting on Tuesday. I'm thinking, okay, that worked out really well. Tuesday comes along, and by the way, the judge sets out three days for motions Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. We're done with 95% of them by noon on Tuesday. But we have more briefing. We have to write three briefs. I wrote one, Darcy wrote two, um, we had a redacting exhibit, and we're meeting again today, Wednesday, at 1 30 to continue to do motions eliminate. And in addition, yesterday afternoon, they had pulled 20 200 jurors, and the judge, the way he does um cause, I mean not cause, um hardship. So if you're if you get call for jury duty, you can claim hardship. But it's up to the judge to decide if that's really hardship. And normally the judge works with the attorneys and goes through all of these people, um, but he knew that we would lose about half. That's typically what you lose, and he said he would do it by himself, which he did. He let off 84 people for uh hardship, which left us with 101 uh people. So Jamie started going through that because she loves juries selection. Um it's very detailed, huge, giant summary, and our job is to whittle it down to something manageable. And here we are, day three of trial. We don't have any trial in the morning, but we start our 130 arguments uh in the afternoon. This is one of the slowest beginnings of a trial, and I actually love it. Normally you just go in, it's crazy from the very beginning. Mike, you've set up for trial so many times. Uh, we haven't even moved our stuff to the courtroom yet.

Mike Todd 3:19

Yeah, no, I know. Yeah.

Karen Koehler 3:22

Because we're doing this part, uh, the motions by by Zoom. So I am not normally I have some adrenaline going. I'm even a little bit more wound up than normal. I am just like a slug.

Mike Todd 3:36

You gotta seem pretty relaxed for a bit.

The Slowest Trial Start Ever

Karen Koehler 3:38

We just finished playing. I just bought a backgammon game when I was gone. We just finished playing. Of course, I beat him senseless upstairs before we came down to do this episode. Senseless. You were crying. You were crying. Oh, yes, you were.

Mike Todd 3:51

It seemed pretty fast. I'll I'll say it seemed fast because when I came up, you were playing, and then when I came up again, the game was over. It was I crushed.

Mo Hamoudi 3:58

She beat me in the Mesopotamian game of that game, and she did it well.

Karen Koehler 4:03

All right. Well, what I'd like you to do, so I'm like a sloth, just my normal speed for me, a sloth moving fast. Um, but Mo, how are you doing?

Mo Hamoudi 4:16

I mean, we're getting ready for trial. It's an important case, and like in my mind, like I couldn't sleep last night, and my mind is sort of like moving through all of the iterations of how things can go in a particular way. So what we did was um, you know, we record our depositions ourselves. We videotape them and audio record them. I downloaded the audio.

Karen Koehler 4:39

Well, with permission, of course.

Mo Hamoudi 4:41

With permission.

Karen Koehler 4:41

It's everybody knows it's on the record and it's official.

Mo Hamoudi 4:44

Yeah, but we're saved money by not hiring an actual videographer.

Karen Koehler 4:48

Yeah, we refuse.

Mo Hamoudi 4:49

Um, and so um I downloaded the audio of the depositions, and I've just I was at the gym working out for like an hour and a half listening to uh oh, and by the way, we have a gym in the office. We haven't talked about it. So we built a gym out downstairs with Mike, everybody. So I was down at the gym and I was working out.

Karen Koehler 5:09

I'm just listening to the deposition, and then like when you're listening, can can we just say that he eats breakfast every day here? He uh well, we played backgammon upstairs. Yeah, he works out in the gym now. He doesn't shower here, but it's pretty much become like a little home away from home.

Mike Todd 5:25

It has. It has.

Karen Koehler 5:26

Do you work out at the gym? Have you done it?

Mike Todd 5:28

I have a couple of times. I haven't, but it's so pretty.

Karen Koehler 5:30

I that's the first time I sat with all the mirrors up. Okay, anyway, your mind, your mind is starting to go.

Mo Hamoudi 5:36

My mind is starting to go. I'm in like listening, listening, listening, just absorbing what I do is just keep reabsorbing the trial.

Karen Koehler 5:42

So t so tell us about this. So we are in trial, yeah, even though to me it doesn't seem like it. You are already revved up and going.

Mo Hamoudi 5:52

Oh, yeah.

Deposition Audio And Gym Prep

Karen Koehler 5:53

And how long has this been going on?

Mo Hamoudi 5:55

Uh I've been revved up probably uh Friday last week.

Karen Koehler 6:04

Are you pleasant to be around if people don't know? Well be honest. Are you pleasant?

Mo Hamoudi 6:11

Well, my wife, Kathy, says she calls me Moody Hamoody.

Karen Koehler 6:16

Are you engaged?

Mo Hamoudi 6:18

What do you mean, engaged with the baby?

Karen Koehler 6:19

With other people.

Mo Hamoudi 6:20

Uh somewhat. I just played a game with you. Um that's because I forced it. You forced it, but no, I get I get like focused. Focused, and I just like wanna I wanna like it's like it's not like a bad thing, it's just like I wanna solve it.

Mike Todd 6:37

That's what my wife calls it when I do that task-oriented. Yeah, I become task-oriented. She's like I can't I can't get you to do anything unless you finish the task that you're working on. Yeah, yeah.

Mo Hamoudi 6:50

Well, you know, I just like you know, I don't know. I mean, that's just where I'm at. That's just who I am.

Karen Koehler 6:55

If you were to calculate, like, we don't really keep track of our time because unlike the people that we are against, we don't get paid by the hour. If you were to keep track of your time yeah, just yesterday, yeah, how much time did you spend not just working, but working plus thinking about this case? Was there any time that you didn't?

Mo Hamoudi 7:23

I would say uh 12 to 13 hours I was thinking about the case.

Karen Koehler 7:27

Including when you were unconscious.

Mo Hamoudi 7:29

Well, I was going to bed and I was thinking about it.

Karen Koehler 7:31

Did you have a dream about it?

Mo Hamoudi 7:33

I did.

Karen Koehler 7:34

What was a dream? Can I ask? I don't want to say what happened.

Mo Hamoudi 7:39

I don't want to say. Now I really want to. I mean, it's not it's not a bad dream, but I was like.

Karen Koehler 7:44

I want to hear. Okay. I can't we'll stop it if it gets terrible.

Mo Hamoudi 7:49

If it gets out terrible, that I came to court and I forgot to change out of my pajamas. And uh I showed up to court and I was rushing in, and you were like, You can't go in, you can't go in like that.

Karen Koehler 8:09

And then I was like, Wait, what do your pajamas look like? Did they have little cute little dogs on them?

Mo Hamoudi 8:14

No, no, no. There were like uh there were like my linen, my linen pants, and then like a shirt that I wear. It says microdose adversity. Okay, and then and it's like a you know, right? And then and then you were like, you can't go in like that. And then I was like trying to reason with you. I was like, no, listen, this is a really good judge. He's gonna understand. He's not gonna he's not gonna be bothered by this. They'll be fine. And you and then you started to be like, you know, he is let's go. Let's go solve the problem. Oh god. And then I woke up.

Trial Brain And Missed Meetings

Karen Koehler 8:57

Yeah, well, that's a good dream. I I wanted to keep going. That's all right. Well, so yesterday I felt like I was totally normal. I felt totally normal. I felt totally unrushed. I had gotten in late the night before, and I was three hours ahead of time in New York time. I hadn't gone to bed till late, and I woke up early, which is what happens when because I don't really time change the way normal people do because of my weird sleeping. Uh, so there's not jet leg involved. There's like almost the reverse. I just sleep like three hours or four, and then I'm some then I'm so so somehow acclimated. Anyway, I get to the office, we do the hearing, I'm listening, because you and Mark Darcy are doing all the arguing on the motions and limiting. I say a couple things to the court um procedurally, and and I walk to the office and then I walk home, right? In the meantime, uh somebody emails me and says, I'm waiting on the line. Okay, I had told Kristen last week, look, Mo and Darcy are gonna be arguing most of it, so it's okay if you book some appointments for me. Well, but in my mind, when I got to the office yesterday, I'm just thinking we're in trial all day, which we were supposed to be, but I never once looked at my calendar. So missed the first appointment. Emailed her and said, Look, let's reschedule it for noon because we'll take a then I re-emailed her back and I said, No, I just can't think about it. We let's move it to Friday. Then I then I walked home in the afternoon. Dilly dallied. Yeah, I had to write a brief for the trial for tomorrow, for today, had some lunch at around two or three, and realized that I was somebody again pinged me, and I realized that I was in the process of missing another meeting.

Mo Hamoudi 10:57

Oh my goodness.

Karen Koehler 10:58

A trial prep meeting with one of the c witnesses for this case.

Mo Hamoudi 11:02

Oh, yeah.

Karen Koehler 11:03

I got on, she was on.

unknown 11:05

Oh, good.

Karen Koehler 11:05

Thank God. Um, so finished that prep, got off, continued to write the brief because I was trying to get it done so it could be filed yesterday. It couldn't be. I didn't get it done till too late. At which point there was another meeting that I completely missed. Another client prep.

Mo Hamoudi 11:30

Oh my goodness.

Karen Koehler 11:31

For this same trial. So I apologized, said, look, let's move it, but we're gonna move it all. And I just and I um also missed something with with Denny, and I said, Oh, I was gonna schedule a lunch for today, and I did for our whole team. But then we have and then I realized, oh, but we have a meeting, and then you have another meeting. I know, and then oh, we have a this thing come and I was I was like, Denny, I have trial brain coupled with trial brain.

Mo Hamoudi 11:59

Wait, wait, trial brain?

Karen Koehler 12:00

I'm in a trial brain.

Mo Hamoudi 12:02

What is trial brain?

Karen Koehler 12:03

My trial brain kicked on and the rest of the world faded away.

Mo Hamoudi 12:07

What the heck is trial brain?

Karen Koehler 12:08

That's what I'm saying.

Mo Hamoudi 12:09

Like, is it like I don't I can't pay attention to things? I can't.

Karen Koehler 12:12

Normally I can, because I do, I keep all my cases going. Yeah. But during those hours of trial, I'm just not thinking that I should have been doing something else.

Mike Todd 12:23

No, you become focused only on the trial.

Karen Koehler 12:26

Because I was just my whole world was a trial, and I forgot that I had told staff that they could double book me. Well, that was dumb. I shouldn't have been double booked. I know. I should have just been so now I will look at my calendar. That's only for this week when you guys are arguing mainly.

unknown 12:43

Yeah.

Trial Mode From A Coworker’s View

Karen Koehler 12:44

So I've got through the most of it. But that happened, which I mean, I can't even believe that happened. I mean, if I miss a meeting, but to miss three meetings and then make another, it was completely related to just being in trial. And so I am not, I I can multitask. Yeah, but I was not realizing I was supposed to multitask because normally all you do is trial when you're in trial. Yeah. It's so confusing. So this is what I want to ask Mike. Mike, when we are in trial, that would be me and Mo, and you can compare us to other people. Can you tell? Do we act differently? Oh, yeah. Okay, well, tell us about just be honest, and we are where we won't we won't get mad.

Mike Todd 13:34

Yeah, you're gonna be honest. Oh, well, I'm not afraid of saying what I'm gonna say. Um I I noticed it just the other day with Mo, uh like last Thursday or Friday. He's he's walks around, like he'll say hello and stuff like that, but you don't engage at all. It's like you're on autopilot, and that's part of the autopilot is still being cordial as you walk by, but then you're like really not thinking. I could tell you were like focused on something else as you were walking by. And it was like that every time I interact interacted with you, unless it was something where I had to like actually talk with you. It was like if I was walking by, you'd just be like, and uh if if I interacted where I had to converse, then you become focused on whoever you're talking to.

Mo Hamoudi 14:24

And you did that. We were in the kitchen and you talked about a movie. Oh, yeah, no, totally. That was intentional to get me doing it.

Mike Todd 14:30

Oh, yeah, no, totally. Because if I didn't, you would have acted like I wasn't there, which is what you do, which is when I don't I don't take offense at it at all because but tons of people are like that, myself included. Yeah, but uh, but that's happens. Like I knew you were I knew like yesterday you got I had to make sure you guys were set up for that trial. So I uh I knew you were coming up to that, so I was like, Oh, he's in trial mode. Karen, you did what you did yesterday, and I knew it was all of that because she came in and you were like, I knew that those guys were supposed to be doing it, and you were like, Oh, okay, I'm gonna sit in here for a few minutes, and so you suddenly entered entered into the trial there, which I didn't think you were gonna be doing that, and then you know, all that other stuff that you were doing was going on. Some of it was directed at me, changing stuff, so I knew things were going on. I was like, God, Karen, what the heck's go like why are you why are you suddenly being a tornado in the office? Oh, I know she's in trial mode. I know.

Karen Koehler 15:32

And that that is probably my defining characteristic of anything is I go, I go quick to begin with, but in trial, and you I don't look like it. Like if you were to see me, I look like I'm a sedate person. Everything is just like there's so much stuff going on.

Mike Todd 15:50

Well, you just had it's like you come in, and if you're not working on if you're not working on the trial where you're actually in there doing something, if that's happening, then there's no contact at all because you're all focused on that. But once you were kind of free-floating yesterday, it's all sudden multitasking by shooting out orders to other people and that are all wrong. Yeah. That are all wrong.

Karen Koehler 16:14

I mean, normally I'm not wrong. I just shoot out the orders and they're typically right.

Mike Todd 16:19

They're correct.

Karen Koehler 16:19

But yesterday was very interesting because it was completely wrong. Everything I did was like, I just need to shut up.

Mike Todd 16:26

It was funny.

Multitasking Limits And Final Takeaways

Karen Koehler 16:27

But but there's, you know, there's a whole lot of other things that go along with trial, but there is a change of personality. Um we get I I tend to get quiet and internal in general because you're going so fast of thinking everything that you have to do and how you're gonna do it, and what's gonna, and they're gonna do this, and the judge is gonna do this, and there's this jury thing, and then oh my god, it's in the press. Um, you know, we better, you know, hope that nobody sees, you know, that or and or we're not in the press. Some other cases in the press, it's similar, you know, or some event happens. So you're just monitoring everything and trying to keep this serene environment in the trial. And the people, we've talked about this before, the people that suffer is everybody around you. Um a short trial is fine, it's the long ones that that aren't so great. This one shouldn't is really a medium. It's almost, I think it's gonna take as long to try the case as it is to argue the motions and choose a jury. Two weeks, the judge set aside to do all that. The jury will take a long time because he, you know, the judge called for 200 jurors.

Mike Todd 17:37

Yeah, it's a lot of people they're just gonna be.

Karen Koehler 17:39

Um because and a lot of them are gonna need individual um interviews because it's a sensitive topic. So the judge knew that this would take longer than normal to choose a jury. Um, but still, all these little pieces have to have to fall into place, and we're the ones that need to make them fall there. So we become preoccupied and kind of not antisocial, but not as adept as normal. Not as courteous. I do want to.

Mike Todd 18:07

We only got a couple minutes left. Okay. Yeah, go ahead. Well, I was gonna say, I think part of it is, you know, though everyone thinks they can multitask, in truth, you kind of have to something has to suffer when you're doing multiple things at the same time. And I think that, you know, in Mo's case, I don't know about you, but it it's hard for me to control my moods sometimes, so I have to concentrate on it. If I'm having to focus on something else, then it may be easier for my moods to affect me.

Mo Hamoudi 18:37

I mean, I think you just hit it. I think that it's it's that. I mean, I feel a big sense of responsibility to this case. And like uh, I think part of the reason that I feel this I I my I just disconnect from people is is that I am putting my soul into the case. I am immersed in it right now, and that's just my process. I am just going over everything and letting it, I just want to absorb it so I know it's here because I can't remember every detail, it's just impossible. And so you're right, and I so I've prioritized that over everything. Yeah.

Mike Todd 19:11

So then suddenly you're forgetting things or you're making mistakes in in outside of court because you're focusing everything into not making mistakes and making sure everything works at what you're actually working on at that time. Yeah.

Karen Koehler 19:28

Well, stay tuned.

Mike Todd 19:29

Stay tuned to be continued. Okay.