When Drive Turns Into Overdrive

"Mom, I need a break", Karen's daughter and personal assistant lets Karen know she needs a break. Karen talks about how driven she is and how it affects her life away from the office.

Stay Connected with The Velvet Hammer™ Podcast

Hosted by Karen Koehler and Mo Hamoudi, trial lawyers at Stritmatter Law, a nationally recognized plaintiff's personal injury and civil rights law firm based in Washington State.

Featuring Mike Todd, producer, audio engineer, and the Disembodied Voice of Wisdom & Reason.

Produced by Mike Todd and Kassie Slugić.

New episodes every Wednesday.

The Velvet Hammer™ Podcast is where trial law meets real life. Trial stories, hard lessons, unexpected laughs, and honest conversations about life inside and outside the courtroom.

Podcast Hub:
https://thevelvethammer.buzzsprout.com

Karen Koehler
https://karenkoehler.com
https://www.instagram.com/k3thevelvethammer/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/karen-koehler-thevelvethammer/

Mo Hamoudi
https://www.instagram.com/mo.hamoudi/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/mo-hamoudi-77a38733/

Stritmatter Law
https://www.stritmatter.com

Transcript

A Daughter Asks For Space

Karen Koehler 0:01

All right, right before we went to tape this episode, I just got off the phone with Christina. Christina is not just my daughter, she's also my personal assistant. And this is what she told me. Quote, Mom, I need a break from you. I need it just through the weekend, like three days. If I can get a break, then I can reset. But we were doing this house thing that I was doing, and you sent me a list yesterday that was boom, boom, and boom, boom, boom, and boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, and boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, and boom, boom, boom, and boom, boom, boom. It was so long and so detailed. And I know that you're excited, but you're going, it's I d I just need a break. This is not the only time that this is said to me. It's said to me all the time. It's one of the reasons why I was in favor of all the staff getting off of email so that they could only get email when they're in their computer so they don't have to watch me sending a million emails to them all through the weekend from my team. Um but part of the part of the um side effects of being in a trial for me is that I start to sleep less, maybe an hour. And I know I'm down to like, you know, around four. It's been averaging between three and a half and four and a half hours for the past since I started looking at my watch, which is about three weeks ago. And that the less I sleep, the more active I become. I like slightly hyperactive. And I'm I was supposed to start a trial on Monday, which has just been put on standby. So now I'm even more r aggravated. So A, I am fast to begin with. B, I probably borderline on being slightly manic to begin with. Not officially. My therapist assured me many years ago, if I just took care of myself, I'm not officially a manic person. But I do have some mania involved in me because I go a mile a minute. So um, I have these confluence of events, and I'm just like, I'm like this. What's next? And what's next, and what's next, and what's next? And then I'm like pounding out, so this is the other thing. So I do my work, all the trial briefing, all the stuff that we're doing for regular cases. I am completely up to date, knock on wood. I don't know how this is possible. In addition, I started getting into Claude because I'm really fascinated by AI, because I had like two minutes to look into something new in the middle of all of this, preparing for trial and closing and all that. Number three, I decided, since it's not really acceptable to use it in our current platform, to put all my marketing in there that I wanted to start looking at. That included my trial diaries, of which I've lost plenty. I I need to find them. So I was trying to find them and locate them. My um

Less Sleep And More Momentum

Karen Koehler 3:00

my different writings, including a book that I found that I had written 10 years ago that I never finished. I used to write it on airplanes. So I've been writing a chapter a week, redoing it, retooling it in Substack, and everything else. I I am like this way, this way, this way, this way. I think I've even driven Mo nuts.

Mo Hamoudi 3:20

No.

Karen Koehler 3:21

I have though. You gotta admit it.

Mo Hamoudi 3:24

It doesn't drive me nuts.

Karen Koehler 3:25

You gotta admit that it's exist and it's a real thing.

Mo Hamoudi 3:27

I ex it exists, it's a real thing. I mean, do we want to talk about it? Do you want like an honest response?

Karen Koehler 3:33

This is a therapy session.

Mo Hamoudi 3:35

Okay.

Karen Koehler 3:36

Okay, first of all, Mike is dying of laughter over there because you know it's true.

Mike Todd 3:40

Oh, I know I totally know it's true.

Karen Koehler 3:42

I mean, you can just see by looking at me. I'm like, I mean, I just gave them, I came down and I brought first of all, I moved the books, I moved some different books.

Mike Todd 3:50

No, yeah, you came down, I came down, the door was already open, lights are on, Karen comes walking out of here. She's got something in her hand. She turns around, she's doing something else, she sees me, she's like, oh hi. Here, wait, I got this that I was working on. You know, I've got my lunch in my hand. I come lock it up. She's like, okay, here, let me tell you this. Now go eat. Just go. I'm gonna work in here. Yeah.

Karen Koehler 4:15

It's crazy when I get like this, but I can be like this for a very sustained period of time.

Mike Todd 4:20

Well, and then you would have done that, and then maybe throwing out a couple other things if I didn't take you down to work on what you were telling me about right then.

Karen Koehler 4:27

Yeah.

Mike Todd 4:27

And and then you would have walked off and found somebody else.

Karen Koehler 4:30

Yep. I went upstairs to the kitchen. I looked at the snacks to see if they were being more responsible and choosing their selections. I opened the cupboard, there were some glasses that I had ordered because there was not enough short ones. I opened the kitchen, uh, I mean, the refrigerator. The refrigerator looked okay. There's some stuff that needs to go. The freezer is a d frickin' disaster.

Mike Todd 4:49

Yeah.

Karen Koehler 4:50

But I mean, these are the things I'm doing. Right. I'm just saying, like, I am like a little tornado walking through the office just waiting to disrupt and redo and well, and you've got a couple other people.

Mike Todd 5:01

It's with the kitchen. You've got people here that really like to save food.

unknown 5:05

Yeah.

Mike Todd 5:05

But they don't like to throw away food. So that's that's they just seem to keep it forever.

Karen Koehler 5:09

It's it's it's not happening. The the letter the letter is going out that I will be throwing and tossing. This is it just doesn't slow down. And that's why my daughter asked me, all my kids will periodically say, Mom, I just can't take this right now. I need a break. And then I'll just come right back at them. Okay, diagnosis.

Mike Todd 5:34

Well. Oh, you go first, Mom. I gotta think about this first.

Mo Hamoudi 5:40

Well, okay, I think that my first question is that if you were physically unable to do any of what you've just described, what would you be doing?

Karen Koehler 5:52

Probably turning around in a circle.

Mo Hamoudi 5:54

If you weren't able to turn around in a circle, and all you could do was sit still, what would you be doing?

Karen Koehler 6:01

I would be shaking my leg a lot. And if you couldn't do that, my mind my mind would literally be going nuts.

Mike Todd 6:09

Okay.

Karen Koehler 6:09

It would not

The Office Tornado And Endless Lists

Karen Koehler 6:10

stop.

Mike Todd 6:10

All right. I would say that's the thing. So is there is there stuff that you do that makes it stop?

Karen Koehler 6:14

Um well some of it I can't talk to you about.

Mike Todd 6:17

Okay, that's fine.

Karen Koehler 6:18

But it no. It goes, it goes, um, but I like to do many things at the same time. Like when I go when I come here on the walking, I talk to I talk to Noelle, I talk to Kristen. You know, I am I um my partner is the most chill guy in the whole wide world. He can't.

Mike Todd 6:43

That's one of the reasons that I was asking this.

Karen Koehler 6:45

He has ways to try to make me calm down, and then he just says, I'm not gonna go.

Mike Todd 6:49

He just goes, okay, it's not worth it.

Karen Koehler 6:51

Um right now he's like, I'm gonna go home and you know work on my car, my car, my car kits, or you know, he's make building a boat, you know, little model boat. He goes and does his stuff. I'm gonna go watch a basketball game. He knows I will not watch a basketball game. But we have a little ritual at night. We watch uh, you know, something for like an hour, hour and a half, eat popcorn, an orange, and some more caramel candies. He eats MMs. I don't. Um, so there's like some ritual built in there. But in general, no. I just find the next I just go do the next thing that I can do.

Mike Todd 7:28

Which there's always so that's what that's my that's my theory on it, is that uh you kind of have to always be running hot or you don't think it's like a shark. You stop, you're gonna die. So you just kind of like you come out of trial where you've been working a mile a minute, and then you come out and you're like, okay, what am I gonna do now? And you just start hitting whatever's in front of you.

Karen Koehler 7:54

Can I just say, you guys, Mike? You gotta remember Mike, he can save you so much money on psych, on psych um fees, because he can just get right to the point and diagnose you right away. This is true. That I mean that whole thing is right there. So how do how do we what do we what should what is the survival?

Mike Todd 8:15

Well, I I mean, for me, because I I have that same thing. Um, I mean, except for when I get onto the depressive side of it, but when I'm on the manic side of of my stuff, I'm working crazy like that. And, you know, it's slowed down because of stuff that I've done to change that, but it's still there. So when it happens, I'm more aware of it now, and I I follow a pattern that I've followed for a long time where when I start to notice it, I start to do things like when I get like that, sometimes I can't do music. Like I I'm too jumbled to like focus down on the stuff. So I'll play video games because video games take a lot of thought and it'll take away from what I'm doing. But at the same time, even though stuff's happening really fast in the game, it relaxes me. Gives me it it takes away all of that need to do stuff really fast. Because I do the same thing that you were talking about. Like I'll be sitting on the couch with Deb watching a movie, and my knee will be going a mile a minute, and uh and she'll be like, honey, come on, slow down. And then she does it, and so then we just kind of start going off on each other about it in a fun way. But uh, you know, I've just found things like either reading where I can really get myself I'll find and it has to not be stuff that I have to think about, like just find totally mindless books that I can just lose myself in.

Karen Koehler 9:53

So that's great advice, and but let me tell you some of my quirks. So I am very similar to my mother, other than other than I am way more in control, in that she had diagnosable hypomania, they called it. She did not have the depressive. I do not have the depressive. I've been depressed once in my life, that was when I got divorced. And it was a long, it was a little situational, but it was it lasted a while. But other than that, I tend to just be just the fast side. Very fast. Secondly, it's not jumbled. It's it can all be directed. Like it's all, it is all um, and I'm a result result, I'm a person that gets it all done. You know that about me. Like I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna do this, and it's gonna get all the way done. I don't get it doesn't get interrupted and then I go into the next thing. It's gonna get all the way done. And then the third thing is that I can sit there for a little bit. But for example, reading a book, I think I've told you this before. The problem is once I start it, I won't stop until it's done if I'm really into it. So then that means I won't sleep. I will finish it.

Mike Todd 11:01

Yeah, for me, part of that is having to just go through that process where I because I sacrifice the sleep during that time sometimes. Yeah. Um and and you know, I'm sure therapists or psychologists, psychiatrists would say that that's a bad thing. Yeah. But it's something that works for me.

Diagnosis Or Coping Strategy

Mike Todd 11:20

Um and and and I think that's the balance that I find between, you know, professional metal medicine and and you know, Laura Ellis is out there.

Karen Koehler 11:32

Laura Tinin the other day. He said, look, you just gotta try this. And I just didn't want to. I said, look, if I can sleep for five hours, which is an hour more than I had slept the night before, or a little bit more, then I don't need it. And I did. I s but I was probably because I was so tired from not sleeping enough the night before. Then I keep I keep Googling it while AIing it and they're like, Well, you know, do you sleep during the day? I'm like, no. I took I took this little they give me this little thing. Is your brain foggy? No. Do you feel the need to sleep during the day? No, I don't ever take it now. Not even when I was pregnant. You know, are you this or are you that or are you this or that? And they're like, well, maybe you just sleep sleep a little less than most people, which is true, but normally my sweet spot is around six hours. It it's I feel like I'm short on it and I'm more hyper than normal. But let's go to Mo. What's your diagnosis?

Mo Hamoudi 12:25

My diagnosis is that um these are coping mechanisms, and these are habits that you've developed um over a period of years in order to cope with something that is not tolerable for you to be in. A space, a mindset, because everything that you do is a collection of habits that you've developed over time. If you sit and spend some time and reflect back, you'll start to realize that there were a consequence of a particular event, a particular relationship that created a need to cope. And your body and your mind uh are really good at surviving. They're designed to survive. And so you go into this space where you're surviving, and right now your subconscious mind needs this behavior to survive. Because without it, it feels as though it will no longer exist. And so I go back to what I said. What would you do if you were physically incapable to do any of this? What would you do? And your answer to me was I would sit there and my mind was spin and spin and spin. And my next question would be what if your mind couldn't do that? What would you do?

Karen Koehler 13:59

I would I would off myself. I've already instructed my children.

Mo Hamoudi 14:03

Okay.

Karen Koehler 14:04

So like if I would had a like I had a brain injury or something like that.

Mo Hamoudi 14:09

No, it's that if you are physically, psychologically, biologically incapable of thinking this way, imagining yourself in a place of peace and quiet, and no action, no anything. Yeah. Have you ever put on that hat and see what it's like?

Karen Koehler 14:31

Well, only when I had l really little children, and that involved a lot of um gardening, sewing every single thing in the in my house, including all their clothes, which to this day they will never let me forget. Taking, I mean, I was super hyper as a housefrau, let's put it that way. I was Martha Stewart at a low level. That's why I refuse to do any of that stuff anymore. But I also worked. The answer is I cannot imagine being quiet and peaceful. That's not in my nature.

Mo Hamoudi 15:05

You cannot imagine or you choose not to imagine.

Karen Koehler 15:08

I cannot imagine because I'm not.

Mo Hamoudi 15:10

Well, that suggests to me that you are incapable, incapable of doing something, which I don't think that that's true. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Karen Koehler 15:19

I'm incapable of it.

Mo Hamoudi 15:20

No, I don't think I don't think that that's true at all. I think that the choice is intolerable for you to be in a place of utter peace. It is totally peace. Okay. And then you want the feedback, that makes me want to ask, that's a spiritual crisis. And not in the sense of God and religion or any of that. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Karen Koehler 15:46

He's been he's been riding me for not being spiritual.

Mo Hamoudi 15:48

No, no, but that's a

Time Running Out And Control

Mo Hamoudi 15:50

that has nothing to do with, by the way, by faith or religion. But that's the human spirit. The human spirit has aspirations that your physical self just do not have. And at some point, you gotta let your spirit step in and guide you to where it wants to go.

Karen Koehler 16:12

My spirit wants to go fast.

Mo Hamoudi 16:15

I don't know.

Karen Koehler 16:16

He doesn't believe me. No, because I've had we've had we have we have had this conversation before. Now, Mo can go a mile a minute too.

SPEAKER_03 16:23

Yes.

Karen Koehler 16:24

He's he's more scattered than I am.

SPEAKER_03 16:29

Even scattered, she does better. I'm always better. Always better. Even the scattered she does better.

Karen Koehler 16:36

We always met. But um you can go fast.

SPEAKER_03 16:39

Yeah.

Karen Koehler 16:39

Um, but you are a much more contemplative person than I am. You do. You write poetry, you like to sit there looking outside at the waves and Maui where you just came back from. Yes. Like you you are happy, like you were that I when I needed you for something, I'm like, where are you? You're like, oh, I'm sitting here looking out at the people in the pool. I cannot imagine sitting somewhere and watching people in a pool. Like, unless I was also in the pool.

Mo Hamoudi 17:09

In the pool. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Karen Koehler 17:12

Yeah. It's a weird thing.

Mo Hamoudi 17:14

Okay, but I have seen you in a place of peace. So I think that you're not.

Karen Koehler 17:18

I'm in no, don't get me wrong. I feel like I'm peaceful. I'm just moving typically when I'm in that place.

Mo Hamoudi 17:23

I have seen you sit still and be in a place of peace.

Karen Koehler 17:26

Okay, when.

Mo Hamoudi 17:28

Um I have seen you with Loris sitting and just holding each other.

Karen Koehler 17:36

Yeah.

Mo Hamoudi 17:36

And you're not moving a mile a minute. You're just sort of sitting and just present.

Karen Koehler 17:41

Yeah.

Mo Hamoudi 17:41

And enjoying being with somebody. I have seen you.

Karen Koehler 17:45

Okay, how long did that last for?

Mo Hamoudi 17:47

It lasted for a good time. How long is a good time? I mean, uh, we were all in Maui, and I think we were sitting outside of the pool, I think it was for a good 30 minutes and having very quiet conversations. Karen's like, yeah, that's nothing. No, but that's quite but to me, to me that to me that's it, right?

Karen Koehler 18:03

And then uh anything much more than that, I cannot do that.

Mike Todd 18:06

Yeah, I was waiting for him to say an hour and then you know, so I'm that no, I can do that. Okay.

Karen Koehler 18:13

I can do that. And I'm really pretty good with it with my kids because they have f you know been very exasp exasperated by the fact that I don't do that. I cannot sit still and, you know, they can take it personally. Like you're not you're not just focusing in on what we're doing. You're just going too fast.

Mo Hamoudi 18:33

Well, I mean, my thesis is that ultimately you do this is because you're afraid that time is running out.

Karen Koehler 18:41

Time is running out.

Mo Hamoudi 18:43

There we go.

Karen Koehler 18:44

I mean, that's that's just a statement of fact.

Mo Hamoudi 18:47

No. No. Nah, it is a state of fact. Well, uh that's a that what is time?

Karen Koehler 18:54

Time is our time is in my form, in my present form, as a mother of th my three children, I time is running out. And and grandmother to two, to three children.

Mike Todd 19:06

I'll tell you what time is. Yeah.

Mo Hamoudi 19:08

Heartbeats. Heartbeats. There you go. That's what time is. Thank you. Okay, so these are definitions that you have decided.

Karen Koehler 19:16

Life has decided. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Life is temporary.

Mo Hamoudi 19:20

Wait, wait, these are definitions that you have decided. And it's just I respect both the definitions. They're like that makes sense, right? But look at how that definition. But listen, but listen. Let me finish. The decision to see time in that way is why, in part, you have these habits. I mean, it's true. I mean, you have these habits because you have a de definition of time. Now I I don't know what time means. Time is an illusion. Like I said, I mean it is an illusion.

Karen Koehler 19:54

Way more ph philosophical.

Mo Hamoudi 19:56

It's not about philosoph being philosophical, but you I don't really know what time is. Like, I to me, time is an illusion. I have feelings associated when I go back in time and think about something that has happened, but there's nothing I can do to change the past, and the future is not even here. I don't even know if it's gonna arrive. All I have is this present moment. I really all I have is this present moment right now with you two. And then my mind wants to go in this construct of saying, I'm gonna run out of time. Therefore, I need these habits to control the time that I think is running out.

Karen Koehler 20:32

Let me follow up on this conversation, because that is, we've talked about this before, especially in this profession where it's gone in your life is gone in an instant, right? That does have a bearing on how we look at it. And especially if you have a tragedy yourself, health condition or whatever it is, right? And it is the truth that in your current form, right, you can come back as a toad and you know that'll time will continue on for you, right? But in our current present form, in this configuration, you have a certain amount of time with your son and your wife. I have a certain amount of time with mine, you have a certain amount of time with yours. I'm very conscious of that. So for example, I do not go to the beauty salon. I told you that. Like I just read an article that bare nails are in, and you just need to buff them to this certain degree and put clear polish on them. I don't touch my fingernails, okay? I do not go get my hair done. I do not go, I've never gone to a dermatologist to have anything done in my face. I do not, I do not, when I look at how much people spend time on absolutely frivolous, banal things, I just think, man, that time is never gonna come back. You just wasted it on nothing. On something that is not gonna make you a better person, it's not gonna make the world a better place. It's just nothing.

Mike Todd 21:52

I disagree with that, but it's not a good thing. I understand where you're trying to come from.

Karen Koehler 21:56

For me, it's uh time is like the most precious commodity because. Because I have no control over it. Trevor Burrus Yeah.

Mike Todd 22:02

If you'd say that you you would be doing I think that you wouldn't be doing all of the things that you do if you really thought that, though. Because if you I've heard you say that you want to spend more time with your family. If you really thought that you wouldn't spend less time with your family.

Karen Koehler 22:17

Trevor Burrus This is true. I'm not saying that I can c that I can control my own personal behavior, but my mental state is Your mental state's in confliction there because you've said opposite things.

Mike Todd 22:29

Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Karen Koehler 22:29

Okay. But it's true that time is precious.

Mo Hamoudi 22:34

But what he just pointed out, which is that you don't spend and more time.

Karen Koehler 22:39

Trevor Burrus It's just like saying, I wish I didn't eat candy and I eat candy.

Mo Hamoudi 22:43

Okay. No, but that suggests that you are you are like you're like a victim of circumstance, that you're some addict. You're not. You are in complete control of these decisions, and you are consciously choosing to make these decisions. You aspire to spend more time with your family. You choose to continue to work in the way that you work and the way that you behave. These are your choices.

Karen Koehler 23:06

Yeah.

Mo Hamoudi 23:06

Because you want to survive. There's something you're trying to protect and allow to survive. Look at his face when he's saying this. What is it?

Karen Koehler 23:14

What is it? What is it?

Mo Hamoudi 23:16

It's yourself. It's this idea of who you are. It's this construct that society has created and who you think you are. And you have some firm convictions about what you think it is, and you have some firm conviction beliefs that time means this and time means that, and what you are leaving at bay is the magic, imagination. And the idea that maybe I don't know what the hell's going on, and maybe there's so much more to this, there's so much more possible, and leaving yourself open in a moment of peace and quiet, something comes in. And you go, wait, what? Maybe there's something else. Maybe there's more to this. That's my for me.

Mike Todd 24:08

It's a little bit more about things that

Small Rituals That Quiet The Noise

Mike Todd 24:10

uh make me feel better, I guess, is the easiest way to describe it. Because like you were talking about how you don't like to do your nails. My wife didn't like to do her nails for pretty much our entire relationship. Um but I recently was like, yeah, you know, I kind of like the way that looks. She was like, Do you want me, do you want, do you want me to do it? I was like, well, you know, we were looking at nail polish, was what we were doing. Like there was an ad on Facebook for nail polish, and I was like, Oh, that looks kind of cool. She was like, I I can't do that. I'm like, I could do it. So now every week or so, I paint her nails.

Karen Koehler 24:51

That is so sweet. Mike, you're such a sweet man.

Mike Todd 24:54

That's wonderful and when I do that, when I do stuff like that, like little fine work, like when I I used to make jewelry too. Like when I make the jewelry, little fine work that takes time that I gotta really concentrate on, all the voices shut off for a while. All the all the crazy manic stuff slows way down. You feel connected. And it and it calms me down for a while. It doesn't stop it forever, yeah, but it gives me a little break. If if when I'm like that, and I do that whether or not I'm manic, you know, it's all the time. Yeah. And it's just, you know, it's a little ritual we do together now, so that's fun. And that's so sweet. You know, I get to have I get to have her nails painted, which makes me feel good.

Karen Koehler 25:36

I think she feels good for I think that I think I love that.

Mike Todd 25:39

I think that that I love that.

Karen Koehler 25:41

That should have been its own podcast.

SPEAKER_03 25:42

Yes.

Karen Koehler 25:44

Well, well, let me let me let me just say that um this is a glimpse of this is a glimpse into a person who's very driven. I mean, I'm a very driven person. You know, people always wonder, like, what makes a driven person? I can remember, oh again, a long time ago, there was a female attorney who had come, we were having lunch, and she had she looked looked up to me and she and she wanted to talk to me. And her boss had said to her, you know, why couldn't you be more like Karen Kohler? Yeah. Meaning, you're, you know, she just worked so hard and she gets so much done, and you know, she doesn't, she just doesn't mess around, and you know, this this person is just completely like a monster. And she had a health issue, and she had a uh she was a single mom. And they said, you know, because I was a single mom of three, but she was she was in a really vulnerable state, and I thought this is not a good thing, like this isn't a good thing to parade. It is personal to me. I am very driven, and you can see the results of that drive. I mean, just even amongst you know the people in the law firm. It is not I think this is true for most people that are, you know, at the top of whatever their thing is, is they do tend to be driven and not and not always in a really healthy way. I think that there's something in me that is just go, go, go. I am not um interested enough, according to Sherry or anybody else that I've ever consulted with to actually explore what that is, other than it's a driver, probably created by, you know, something happened to me in childhood. I get it. But overall, I'm very happy. Yeah. I just um I'm positive, I'm happy, I like what I'm doing. But I even know at this point when I'm right in between two trials, one of now, which is gonna get pushed, that I should be sleeping an extra hour. I am revved up more than normal, and it's intolerable to my child to deal with my uh ever constant um list of things or just wanting to see, you know, my hands in everything, uh kind of mode that I can get into. So it I don't have any answers. I appreciate your insights. I understood Mike's better than I did yours, because yours are too abstract. You need me to get out of my body a little bit.

Mo Hamoudi 28:17

Yeah, as you well, I mean, I'll give you a very specific concrete

A 15 Minute Stillness Practice

Mo Hamoudi 28:20

instruction. Introduce a new habit into your day that is 15 minutes long. That's it. Where you sit quiet and just just sit quiet and let whatever thoughts come in, let them wash over you and do nothing. Okay. And do it every day, just for 15 minutes of your day. That's it. That's concrete advice of my abstract ideas, that it's easy to implement. And watch how this habit, over a period of time, takes on its own life and and supplements enhances the current set of habits that drive your children crazy.

Karen Koehler 29:01

I don't even know what he's trying to do. You like that. Okay, what do you mean by the way? Abstract.

SPEAKER_03 29:06

I don't like your dogs, they're too abstract. So abstract. I used to You're too abstract. That's concrete.

Karen Koehler 29:12

When I first started doing I was there's a big move. You know, my my brother-in-law Rob, he meditates faithfully every day.

SPEAKER_03 29:22

Like way faithfully. Okay.

Karen Koehler 29:24

Okay. I remember trying to meditate. I was like, you gotta be kidding. And I felt guilty that I couldn't just do it. And then I heard, you know what, your way of going on your jogs and going, you know, because that's when I the things always pop into my head is when I'm doing that. Unless I'm he's hogging my time on the phone or, you know, I'm talking to Shelly. A lot of I tend to now talk a lot on the phone. But if I'm not talking on the phone, I'm just listening to a music or listening to a book, that's a very zen time for me. So I just need movement.

Mike Todd 29:56

Yeah. Well, that's what I was about to say is that uh I don't necessarily think that it because meditation is the same for me. Like I've tried it over and over and over and over, and it I can't, it just doesn't do I can't do it. I don't get the relief that people get out of it. I've got to have something else going on always that can then distract me from all the stuff in my head.

Karen Koehler 30:18

Yeah.

Mike Todd 30:19

Um and I can lose myself in that, but it there's gotta be something. So I was gonna say, like, I you should just I know that you do it, but writing that's not that doesn't have to do with legal stuff.

Karen Koehler 30:32

That's what I'm gonna do in my little book. My Substack.

Mike Todd 30:34

Yeah. Yeah. I think you should try to focus on that a little bit more. Yeah. And that may help you. Like when you're trying to get sleep, do it for a set amount of time and then go to bed.

Karen Koehler 30:45

Oh, well.

Mike Todd 30:46

That's the way you trick yourself.

Karen Koehler 30:48

But I do, I I have to gotta go better right away.

Mike Todd 30:51

You can't you can't like go, okay. I'm gonna do something else for a second. And you can't touch your phone after that at all. No, no, no, no. No screens after that. At midnight, my so complicated. Okay, I think this is a good place to do it. It's a good place to stop.

Mo Hamoudi 31:05

Okay. In the middle of nothing. In the middle of nothing.