Why Trial Lawyers Hate Jury Verdicts — Even When They Win

The jury is filing in, the verdict form is in hand, and suddenly the loudest feeling is not victory. It’s relief. We talk candidly about what verdict day does to trial lawyers and why even a “good” jury verdict can feel heavy, tense, and strangely joyless.

We break down the real-time experience of listening to a verdict being read: negligence, proximate cause, damages, and then the gut-punch question of comparative fault. One percentage can reshape a client’s recovery and their future, so we’re doing mental math while also watching the client absorb it all. We also get into why the verdict is the one moment we truly cannot influence, and why that lack of control hits harder than any cross-exam or closing argument.

From there, the conversation widens into what closure actually means in civil litigation and personal injury cases. A verdict can close the case and lift years of pressure, but it doesn’t restore health or bring someone back. What it can do is offer validation: a public acknowledgment that the harm mattered and the person mattered. Finally, we wrestle with the emotional survival skills that make this work possible, including “empathy gates,” vicarious trauma, and the constant tension between mission-driven law and the business realities that shape career choices.

If you connected with this, subscribe, share the episode with a friend, and leave a review. What do you think a verdict is really worth?

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Hosted by Karen Koehler and Mo Hamoudi, trial lawyers at Stritmatter Law, a nationally recognized plaintiff's personal injury and civil rights law firm based in Washington State.

Featuring Mike Todd, producer, audio engineer, and the Disembodied Voice of Wisdom & Reason.

Produced by Mike Todd and Kassie Slugić.

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Mo Hamoudi
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https://www.linkedin.com/in/mo-hamoudi-77a38733/

Stritmatter Law
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Transcript

Karen Koehler 0:08

Another month of not sleeping, another trial.

Mo Hamoudi 0:11

Another trial. And coming came to an end

Verdict Day And Relief

Mo Hamoudi 0:13

yesterday?

Karen Koehler 0:14

It did.

Mo Hamoudi 0:15

And how did it go?

Karen Koehler 0:16

It was a good verdict.

Mo Hamoudi 0:17

Yeah? Tell us about it.

Karen Koehler 0:18

It doesn't matter. I always want more and I'm always never satisfied. But the main I will tell you, the number one emotion that always is with me when I hear a jury verdict is relief.

Mo Hamoudi 0:33

Okay.

Karen Koehler 0:34

I mean, maybe I'm not relieved when it's a bad verdict, but the best verdicts that I get, the primary emotion I have is relief.

Mike Todd 0:42

Okay.

Karen Koehler 0:42

It's not elation, it's not joy. Even the ones that have been just like knock it out of the park, it's been relief.

Mike Todd 0:50

Is that relief because you feel like you've accomplished, or relief because you were worried that there would be a different outcome?

Karen Koehler 1:00

The latter. Um, because I haven't really,

Building A Career On Tough Cases

Karen Koehler 1:05

with the exception of Rye the Ducks, I have not made my career out of trying easy cases. They're all really tough. And I know um, gosh, lawyers used to say, you know, try your good cases, settle your bad ones. I've I've had an opposite career. And it could be just because I have trouble, maybe more trouble than other lawyers of getting cases from who I am, and I don't know what it is, or maybe I just look like I want tough cases. Um, but that's what I tend to get, are the these really hard ones. And so this this lawyer that I tried a case against, and I do want to talk about this lawyer, that's what I want to talk about. Um, I tried a case against him two uh four four years ago now in 2022, and that case was there to be lost the whole time. I had eyewitnesses, there was a motorcycle case, two eyewitnesses who didn't actually see the crash saw him half a mile before and said he was going 80 miles an hour in a residential zone. Um uh just so it was it was a very, very tough uh case. And we got an enormous verdict, and but most importantly, the jury found him 5% at fault, which is about as I can't even imagine it being that low. I never even thought it would be that low. And I was really relieved about that. That was super great. But that was the you know, they start off by saying, was a defendant negligent? And you're holding your breath, like, and then yes. Uh and then it's like, was the negligence approximate cause? Yes, okay, that's good. Then the next question's gonna be um, how much are how much okay, and you're listening to how much, and it doesn't really matter because you're thinking, like, is the plaintiff also gonna be found to be at fault? So that's what happens in in this case yesterday, right? Is a defendant at fault? Yes, approximate, yes.

How Jurors Decide Fault And Damages

Karen Koehler 3:01

And then you skip to what are the damages? So you really are those those aren't landing with me. I'm just like, well, what's gonna happen next? And the next one is was the plaintiff at fault? Yes. And then you go, crap. And you and you're just thinking, like, okay, what's the next question? Was approximate cause? Yes. Okay, dang. Then the next question here was was the owner of the bushes, who we don't even know who that is. So basically, were the bushes negligent? No. Okay, well, that's good. Approximate? No. Okay, that's easy. Now you have to go back and they're gonna decide what the percentages are, the liability. And you know, what's a percentage? In this case, it was 82%. I'm doing math. I was like, okay, 18%, less than 20. I wish it was lower, but I can live with that. Like, that's not terrible, but I wish it was that was what I would have thought that was golden in the motorcycle case. We have five. So I'm like, okay. And then now they're done reading the verdict form, but I hadn't even concentrated on the numbers because I'm just waiting to see is there gonna be a recovery here or not. And then you go back and look at the mim numbers, and then you gotta go do the math. Like, are they gonna be okay? And you're like, oh yeah, they're gonna be okay. Um, but that's it's very I'm I'm looking at it really logically and with a certain amount of terror for the client, because this affects them, not us. We're used to losing. They don't, they're not not something like this. They've never even brought a lawsuit before. So it's it's not it's not so much emotional, I think. Don't you think? Yeah. I think it's more like it's a logical thing, and that's why I can't, I don't feel the emotion of it.

Mo Hamoudi 4:42

I think that's worrying. I think that experience is just idiosyncratic. I think for you it's logic, and for others it may not be, but it makes sense how you think like that. That makes natural sense. Well, how do you do it?

Karen Koehler 4:54

I you know You just well, I mean, in a simple case, different than you know, criminal case is pretty much

Thinking Versus Feeling During Verdicts

Karen Koehler 5:00

more uh shorter verdict form. You don't have these long verdicts, you know, ride the ducks took her over half an hour to read it.

Mo Hamoudi 5:09

It's like over an hour. Well, for me it's a culmination of like years of work sometimes or uh or hundreds and thousands of hours of of effort, not by one person.

Karen Koehler 5:23

You're thinking that when she's reading the Well, no. When she's reading the what I What are you feeling when they're reading the jury verdict? At that moment. Don't don't intellectualize this. Like at that moment, what are you feeling? And I'm feeling this logical thing.

Mo Hamoudi 5:41

Well, I'm not in the I'm not feeling the logical thing. And I and but I'm just saying to you, I'm describing to you what I'm feeling, but I don't think you like what I'm feeling.

Karen Koehler 5:49

You're not feeling that.

Mo Hamoudi 5:49

Well, no, but what I'm telling you is exactly what I'm thinking.

Karen Koehler 5:52

Okay. What are you feeling?

Mo Hamoudi 5:54

But I'm thinking and feeling that, my goodness, this is the moment that like this is the this is it. This is the end result.

Karen Koehler 6:01

So you So it's like a it's you're more you're co you're more cohesive, is what you're saying. You're thinking and you're feeling. I'm just thinking.

Mo Hamoudi 6:09

It just depends on the case. I honestly think it depends on the case. I've had cases where like I know that that uh that what they're saying, what the jury's saying is is is gonna land with the client and it's very significant for the client.

Karen Koehler 6:26

Like our last case together.

Mo Hamoudi 6:27

Like Taylor. Like Summer Taylor was a case where whether or not Summer Taylor was careless was probably more important question than whether or not To the family. To the family, than it was whether or not the state was responsible. And uh and so like in a case like that, like I'm just think looking at the family and listening. So, you know, there are cases where I'm holding my client's hand or holding them as they're reading the verdict, and then I'm thinking, like, my God, I hope I've done everything to the best of my abilities. And I'm thinking that as they're reading the verdict. Um, but uh the you know, I think that each case is unique. But you wanted to talk about the defense lawyer. That's why you wanted to talk. What do you want to talk about?

Karen Koehler 7:17

That's a whole other subject.

Mo Hamoudi 7:18

Okay. But that's the process. The process, I think, is different. I think that uh, yeah, yeah, the process is different. It depends on the case.

Karen Koehler 7:25

It's a case, you know, this case also that one, you know, that one was a zoo.

Hating The Verdict And Losing Control

Karen Koehler 7:30

I took it by Zoom. I actually was walking home when it came in. Um, and we took it by Zoom, and the client was in New York by Zoom. I think that also makes a difference when the client is not there. Like, I as you know, I hate, I hate the jury verdict part. I hate that part. I don't care what case it is. Yeah, I don't think it'll ever change for me. I hate it. I don't like it when I win, and I don't like it when I lose for them. I just hate it. And so I'm relieved when the client says, well, they can't come because they're in New York. And I'm relieved. Okay, I don't have to go down. I hate going down. Yeah. I hate going down for the last trial. I hate going down for every single trial. And then when I get there, I'm glad I'm there with the client. Like that that's the only thing. I'm glad I'm there for the client, with the client, being there with the client. That's the only reason I go down there.

Mo Hamoudi 8:22

Why do you hate going down?

Karen Koehler 8:23

I hate listening to what the jury has to say. Why? I don't because I don't I have no control. And I'm and I'm and I I just I have no control. It's completely in their hands. There's nothing I can say or do about it. I can't get them to change their minds.

Mo Hamoudi 8:43

But isn't it just done? Isn't that true throughout trial? You don't have a lot of control over some things that happen. What the judge does, what witnesses testify to.

Karen Koehler 8:52

Just little moments in time. Okay.

Mo Hamoudi 8:54

And why the verdict?

Karen Koehler 8:55

Because that's what profoundly impacts the client.

Mo Hamoudi 8:58

Okay.

Karen Koehler 8:58

They don't care that I lost emotion.

Mo Hamoudi 9:00

How does that impact you?

Karen Koehler 9:03

Well, since I'm not an empathetic caring person, it only momentarily impacts me.

Mo Hamoudi 9:08

Momentarily? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. What's the real answer?

Karen Koehler 9:13

Oh, I mean, I hate it.

Mo Hamoudi 9:15

Okay. That's, I think, is interesting. Why do you hate it?

Karen Koehler 9:18

Uh what do you mean? I hate it. I hate the fact that the jury didn't get it right. I hate the fact that maybe I did something wrong. I hate the fact that the client, you know, trusted us and we let them down. I hate the fact that they are injured no matter what happens, because that's all we represent. And they have now, you know, they're left to their own devices. I hate it. Even when they win, I hate it.

Mo Hamoudi 9:43

Even when they win, they hate it.

Karen Koehler 9:45

I do initially because it's over. You know, it's over, it's final. Now what, like they are still injured or they're still dead. It really, what did it change? What I take solace in is that what it does positively is it gives value. It's just what I talk about. Like they need to know that that person didn't die for nothing and that their life was worth crap and nobody cared. So going in there and hearing that somebody cared is the most important thing. It's that validation of why we are in existence, like the validation of this is terrible that happened to you. And we hear you and we see you and we believe you. To me, that that's why I like Summer Taylor. Like I wasn't devastated other than their stupid verdict.

SPEAKER_01 10:31

Yeah.

Karen Koehler 10:32

But the finding that she was not, they were not um at fault was so important. Um so yes, everything is different, but in general, I hate taking a verdict. I don't like the verdict part of it. It happens, it's done, it's over. Sometimes it's great. Like our the last case against this attorney, right? Kick their butt, huge verdict. I mean, it was like it was like seven, it was like eight figures of interest after two years because he tried to appeal it and lost. And so that's I love it that it changed the client's life and that they are in a different position, although they have the same terrible injury.

Mo Hamoudi 11:17

I think what you're like describing to me is that verdicts don't

Closure, Validation, And Living With Harm

Mo Hamoudi 11:22

bring closure. They're they're a step in a process, but they don't bring closure because closure is something very personal to everyone, every person, including the plaintiff, the defendant, and the lawyers.

Karen Koehler 11:37

I will amend that. It does bring closure to the litigation, which is really important for a plaintiff. Um, everybody will say, as soon as the case is over, I mean, they don't have to think about it. They don't have to worry about going to court, they don't have to worry about, you know, having to face a jury, they don't have to worry about people um sending private eyes after them again, they don't have to worry about what they say to their psychiatrist and the privacy of of that, you know, should be a private space. They do not have to think about that. And it's like a giant weight. They always describe it's like a huge weight off of them when a case is finally over. That part is closed. But we go on and we go to our next case. They have to live that life. And because I am not as empathetic as you, or at least I put it away, I'm able, I'm able to say that's that's okay, you know, we did our part, but I don't I can't think about the fact that every day they're gonna get up, hopefully, but they're gonna face a day with those injuries or those losses. It's overwhelming if you think about it. It would be, for us, if you were to think about like how do we illustrate if you were totally empathetic and thought about all this all the time, what would it be like? And I would say it would like it would be like living in a graveyard where you're just surrounded by hundreds, if not thousands, of people suffering. That's what that's what it's kind of would be like. And that's why I can't carry it with me.

Mo Hamoudi 13:10

Mike?

Mike Todd 13:16

This one's a tough one for me because uh I was just at a memorial last night for a really old friend's uh partner had passed from a uh you know, many years out uh of living with a traumatic brain injury. He uh my my friend um I mean he's in like for the last few years he's put himself in debt and uh had to live with someone who was you know ha had a lot of problems. And uh they were the the you know they didn't have a court case. They didn't, you know, there was no money, it was just a regular person who had a horrible thing happen and then had to deal with the outcome. Some of our clients would get lots of money like you know the most recent one, they did very well. But that still doesn't like you said, that doesn't change any of it. It still could end the same way that my friend's partner ended. And uh it's horrible. Yeah, you know, um and so I I don't think you can carry that. I mean, it's like people that are in the military or people doctors, people that have to deal with that loss on a regular basis, but not only deal with it, also deal with the family and the aftermath. And uh you can't carry that stuff around. That's too heavy of weight. You wouldn't attorneys would be fallen, like the people wouldn't be attorneys.

Karen Koehler 15:00

They are it's like my daughter, you know, Noelle, she's an e an emergency department. She's a charge nurse. Like if you watch the pit, she's you know, the charger nurse.

Mike Todd 15:08

And I know them well.

Karen Koehler 15:10

There's not a day that goes by that someone doesn't die in their hospital. There's a 75-bed emergency department, and and or something terrible happens, you know, kids and everything. And she she suffers, right? Obviously, she suffers trauma constantly. The difference is is that it's a shorter period of time. For us, we spend sometimes years with people and they become very close to us, and we know, and we know all of their stuff, like we know their medical, we know their employment, we know their, we've talked to all their friends and families, we've had, you know, we just know so much about that family and the dynamics, and you s and you care for them as individuals.

Mike Todd 15:53

Well, and you're creating a narrative for your case as well. So you're you're becoming part of it.

Karen Koehler 15:59

True. And and you know, I feel like I walked on to court uh the other day, I showed, I showed, yeah, I showed Mo, Christopher Kim's plaque where he fell in Pioneer Square that had dust on it, and I moved it, it moved it around. And I never met him, but I know him. I know they the the family members, they bring their lost person alive for us. And it's our job to show who that person was. And and uh so anyway, it is a really it's a privilege to do what we do and to be given that access to people who maybe they're really private, maybe they're not really private, but one of the I think one of the reasons for my success in terms of emotionally being able to do this job for so long is because my empathy has a gate and a and a and a lock associated with it.

Mike Todd 17:01

Well, I think you have to have that to a certain extent if you're gonna work in this field. And I know that some of us might not have that significant.

Karen Koehler 17:11

Some some of us some of us may think that I'm hold cold and heartless, but you know, I've been called out myself a few times. Some of us also may need to be picked off the floor often because they are so wrapped up into their clients' distress. Um, what do you think about that?

SPEAKER_01 17:29

I think that uh I don't know. I mean, it's uh well I not that not that you would, you know.

Mo Hamoudi 17:39

I think people are motivated to do what they want to do in life. I don't think anybody's

Mission, Money, And Choosing A Legal Life

Mo Hamoudi 17:44

got a gun to their head, okay? Like we could I could easily go open up a Moroccan restaurant.

Karen Koehler 17:51

Why are you so defensive right now? We're talking about you.

Mo Hamoudi 17:55

Well, I just said you are talking about me. It could be very easy for me to go open up a Moroccan restaurant and call it Moe's Moroccan restaurant. And I would have, I would run the front of the front of the restaurant, I would have, I would have Moroccan margaritas, and I would have great mezes, Mahamara, Tadzigi, Hamas, and Baba Ganoush, and and kefta, and then I would have hookah, and people would come gather. You would sit on the ground and have pillows and visit with each other. And the back of the house, in the back of the house, I would run back and I would run the back of the house and run out the food and live each day until the last day of my life having created this environment. But I chose to do this, right? Right?

Karen Koehler 18:42

But I chose to do this. That's why you always are telling me you want to go to Tahiti and open up a bar on the beach.

Mo Hamoudi 18:47

Well, yeah, but I'm just saying, like, but I chose to do this, right? So, like, first of all, it's like it you know, it's my personal responsibility for choosing this career, right? And like, what motivates you to choose a career in part is, you know, your ego. You have to be uh, you know, in part because you want to maybe try to do something, have some purpose, and then you gotta make some money. This is the realities of life. So I think that the answer is a lot more complicated and multi-level than it is like so like straightforward. Empathy is a part of it, Karen. But like money is a part of it. Self-acolides are a part of it. I am good at what I do.

Karen Koehler 19:31

That's it. I've had the flight. Regularly regularly, some people in the office have to literally be lifted up off the floor because they shouldn't have, I mean, they have exposed themselves to so much trauma. And and also, some people have experienced that trauma. So being exposed to it is even more resonating and more overwhelming. Yeah. Yeah. But there's that's only some people. That's not us, obviously.

Mo Hamoudi 20:01

No, but this is the business we have chosen.

Karen Koehler 20:07

It's not this is the business we have chosen. This what we are not talking about, you are trying to like switch over. It's not switch. Obviously, we chose this business. Okay.

Mo Hamoudi 20:17

And yeah.

Karen Koehler 20:18

And it's not a business, it's a mission.

Mo Hamoudi 20:20

It is a business that is mission focused.

Karen Koehler 20:23

It is mission focused.

Mo Hamoudi 20:24

But it's a business.

Karen Koehler 20:25

Yes, but business is not first. The mission is.

Mo Hamoudi 20:30

Well that's uh It is for me.

Karen Koehler 20:33

Otherwise, I wouldn't be working. Um I don't I didn't need to be in a business. I could just, I don't have to work. I am mission-driven.

Mo Hamoudi 20:41

You know what? The public defender's office needs great trial lawyers. And you know what, Karen? I thought I will write a letter of recommendation for you right now. Karen, I'm gonna write a letter of recommendation. And then you can go to the You don't need the business. You don't need the business.

Karen Koehler 20:59

No, no, no, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Because you know what? I thought I was gonna be a criminal lawyer, but you know why I didn't want to be? Because you have to devoid, you you definitely have to devoid, I mean, not devoid, you have to actually reconcile in your own mind that you're going to represent someone who did it for the sole purpose of the mission, which is to protect the Constitution. Okay. I am not that person. I do not choose I I have the luxury and have for 15 years, maybe 20, to work for the people I want to work for. And that's that's why I am very, very privileged. I was able to create that world. I didn't used to. I used to represent who I was gonna say, you worked for insurance companies for a while, and did you I represented whoever I was told to represent or whoever could, and it was only in the last half of my career that I could that and it is as I got more successful, where I say, yeah, I don't want even now. If somebody does something I don't like, we will get they're rude to the paralegal.

Mo Hamoudi 22:02

Mm-hmm. No. Legal aid. Advocacy, immigration law. There's a lot of places. No business, just mission. I like No business.

Karen Koehler 22:12

I like people that have been absolutely deaf and dosed. I'm not saying that there's no mission there.

Mo Hamoudi 22:17

Well, I'm saying there's an opportunity for you not to be in business and go do something that's just completely a mission. There's no like business.

Karen Koehler 22:23

Yeah, but I'm digging into it.

Mike Todd 22:24

I think a lot of the that's the thing. Everything that you get paid to do is business.

Karen Koehler 22:30

Yeah.

Mike Todd 22:31

But I think that there's definitely different areas of law that take more dedication while you may still while you still make money and in those cases have a chance to make a lot of money. I don't necessarily think that it's the same mission that, say, a corporate lawyer has or an insurance lawyer has or you know an environmental lawyer has.

Karen Koehler 22:59

Yeah. Well, I'm not going to bash any lawyers. But clearly. And I'm not trying to bash them.

Mo Hamoudi 23:05

No, you're not bashing lawyers.

Karen Koehler 23:06

Yeah. We're just talking. Well, why did you leave um your mission practice?

Mo Hamoudi 23:11

Com complicated.

Karen Koehler 23:12

I know why, and it was not complicated. It was not complicated.

Mo Hamoudi 23:15

It was multi-factor. It was personal.

Karen Koehler 23:17

Yeah. Your wife told you that. No, I didn't get it back.

Mo Hamoudi 23:21

I mean, I don't mind I don't mind not sharing it.

Karen Koehler 23:23

It's none of our business.

Mo Hamoudi 23:24

No, no, no. I don't mind my business. No, no, because you brought it up with that mission. I want to win.

Karen Koehler 23:29

I want to win this somebody.

Mo Hamoudi 23:32

My partner wanted to leave what she had been doing for years supporting me because I have been mission-oriented since I came out of law school and worked for people who couldn't afford my time. And uh she said, it's not my turn. And I said, That's fair, because you've dedicated n near 12, 14 years of your life doing something you don't even enjoy. And she wants to be a designer, an interior designer, and and do housing flips and things like that. So that was one of the primary decisions I made to change my career. And it's it was hard. It's it was hard because I, you know, I regretted a great deal leaving.

unknown 24:14

Financial.

Mo Hamoudi 24:15

Yeah, and it's financial. It was financial. But Mike, is it only financial in that situation? It was financial.

Mike Todd 24:21

Well, you didn't have necessarily the choice to stay with her because she was choosing to leave. So there was that side. But you moved on to a very lucrative practice. Yeah. So I have to say that I think money was a consideration, not your first consideration, but money's always a consideration in these situations. How about unless you're someone who doesn't care about money.

Mo Hamoudi 24:45

Oh, or it's because you just love the person you're with and you want to make that you gotta sacrifice sometimes to so that they can't his dreams.

Mike Todd 24:53

I mean, that's your partnership. Yeah, you know. That's that's part of it too. But I think you were making the choice to move from a not as lucrative practice to a more lucrative practice.

Mo Hamoudi 25:06

And the first firms I started to talk to were the defense firms.

Karen Koehler 25:11

Because you didn't know any better.

Mo Hamoudi 25:12

And and and I was like And did they offer you a lot of money? Well, there was one that was interested and was good money, but I what I dug in, I was like, there is no mission here. Well, that's the thing. There was like, where's the people? Where are the humans? And what is the purpose? Yeah, what was the purpose? And I was like, I can't do this. There's no way. And I had to try to find a way to do a hybrid, you know, and here I am.

Karen Koehler 25:42

Okay, I didn't even know we started talking about it at the beginning of this podcast, but there we end.

Mo Hamoudi 25:46

And it ends.